Obtaining Flight Instructor Certificate

Sylvain

It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I have someplace a copy of the original letter that the FAA Lawyer put
out that spelled out that it was authorized and the conditions.

Am sure your data will be an eye opener even for some CFI's.

26 days and counting G

Big John


On 29 Nov 2003 05:20:55 -0800, (Sylvain) wrote:

Larry Fransson wrote in message news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:
Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.
Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger"
in
a commercial operation.
Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

Big John wrote in message
It's interesting that you point out how one can legally fly without a
medical certificate. Haven't seen it talked about for years.

I did look up the class-III thing quite a while ago and made sure I
understood it properly because i) I wanted to become a CFI (still not
there yet, I should stop procrastinating and take the exam ...:-);
and ii) only had a class-III at the time with a SODA limited to class-III
only and I wasn't sure whether I could upgrade it to class-II or higher;
turned out that I was able to do so (all it took was additional time to
process the paper work and another medical flight test, no biggie; but
I digress; anyway, the point is that when you have to get SODA to fly,
you end up having to learn the regs pretty well :-)

except that I made a mistake (hope you guys would have corrected it,
but just to be sure):

(which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

I meant to say: if one is NOT acting as PIC or as required crew member...

for instance, when you are teaching an advanced student (already rated
in category and class -- and type as the case may be -- and with proper
endorsement should it be a complex/high-perf/tailwheel) who can act as
PIC...

--Sylvain

I've been trying to pour through that document.. and have it on my computer
to do word searches..

I must admit.. that my statement stems from a "FAA Safety Seminar" before
the current "Wings" program.. where the FSDO and the local DEs all agreed..
at that time.. about 15 yrs ago.. a Commercial only pilot could be a
"Basic" CFI... but had the above discussed restrictions.. for the reasons
mentioned..

It seems that based on the information recently provided in FAQ part61..
they "removed all doubt".. by requiring an instructor candidate (for
airplane) to require an IFR rating.

ISHC (I stand Humbly corrected)
BT
"Sylvain" wrote in message
om...
Larry Fransson wrote in message
news:2003112821481850073%lfransson@comcastnet...
On 2003-11-28 20:29:58 -0800, "Chris" said:
Thanks for your response BTIZ that clarfies things alot!
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his
Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.
Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you
don't
have a IFR rating.
Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying
passenger"
in
a commercial operation.
Just don't take that as gospel truth. He's incorrect on both counts.


I agree with Larry, i.e., that BTIZ (I hope I am citing who wrote what
correctly) is incorrect, however, with some minor differences; i.e.,
one, I agree that one is not eligible to become a CFI without an
instrument rating, but not for the reason given by BTIZ. Here is how
I come up to this conclusion (my sources: 14 CFR 61 as well as the
related FAQ document that may be found at the FAA web site -- search
for pt61-18.pdf -- the document is maintained by John Lynch, General
Aviation Certification Branch, AFS-840).

(Now guys, be nice, correct me where I am going wrong here)

first, eligibility requirements to be a flight instructor as in
61.183, and in particular 61.183(c)(2), which is not as well worded
as one would wish; from the FAQ document, it appears that it states
that "in addition to holding either a commercial pilot certificate or
an airline transport pilot certificate the CFI candidate must also hold an
instrument rating or instrument privileges [as provided with an ATP
certificate]"

in other words one is not eligible with a restricted commercial
certificate
without an instrument rating.

Now, the part about the no night flying/no cross country in excess of
50 miles limitations -- see 61.133(b) -- mentioned by BTIZ would not
apply for two reasons; one, the one mentioned just above, the other
one is that a CFI is actually not providing his/her services as a pilot
but as an instructor (which is why one can be paid as a flight instructor
with just a class-III medical certificate or even without any valid
medical certificate if one is acting as PIC, or as required crew member,
see 61.23(b)(5)); i.e., while instructing, a CFI is only exercising
the privileges of a private pilot...

seriously, get yourself a copy of this part 61 FAQ document, it is very
well worth the read, and clarifies an awful lot of somewhat obscure
points
like this one...

--Sylvain (still working towards becoming a CFI :-))

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:66Vxb.11631$ML6.4351@fed1read01...
as I understand it.. a CFI without an Instrument rating on his Commercial
certificate will not be able to teach cross country or at night.

Commercial privileges are limited to 50nm and day time only if you don't
have a IFR rating.

Your "basic" student working towards the private is a "paying passenger" in
a commercial operation.

No, you cannot apply for a CFI rating without first showing you hold
an instrument rating (or ATP).

No, teaching is not a commercial operation, that is why we don't need
class 2 medical. Teaching is a nice expection that allows us to be
paid to fly without it being a commercial operation. In the eyes of
the FAA, you are being paid to teach, not to fly. For post-solo
students, that's true. I rarely even actually touch the controls with
post-solo students (but I do "guard" them).

-Robert, CFI