Frustrated Student Pilot About to Quit

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsKRPb.123597$xy6.429769@attbi_s02...
If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to
change
your circumstances.

I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
deeper.

Either this guy discovered that flying isn't what he really wants to do
with
his money, or he has run up against a quiet inner fear of soloing. I
think
we all experienced the latter, to one degree or another, and fought our
way
through it to success.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing
due
to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.


Interesting you said this, because the same thing occurred to me. The big
clue was that he is quitting right after being told he is ready to solo.

In article pKRPb.123597$xy6.429769@attbi_s02, Jay Honeck wrote:
I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
deeper.

Not necessarily, and in fact, because many in GA feel this, I think many
of us are living in denial about what GA is really like. Because we have
such a strong passion about it, we often can't see the wood for the
trees.

Why is GA continually economically distressed, when other (expensive)
past-times, sports, ways-of-life etc. are not?

There are several factors.

1. The root cause:
The typical pilot is INCREDIBLY price sensitive. Not necessarily
'mean', or 'tight' (many *are* extremely generous to their friends, and
do things like take people flying and not even ask for a contribution).
I think an airport restaurant owner spotted this: pilots would generally
buy the cheapest meals possible, and it was the non-pilots who would be
willing to spend the money - and this is over spending $5 instead of $7,
not $70 instead of $50.

This is reflected in the rental fleet and quality of instructors. The
fleet is old and knackered generally because the 'Pilot Personality' is
only willing to pay bottom dollar. (There are exceptions - but they are
just that -- exceptions).

I know I am guilty of this myself. Most of my pilot friends are similar.
One of my friends down at the airport here is almost certainly a
multimillionaire. He's very generous to friends, but when it comes to
buying stuff for his business he is INCREDIBLY tight, and bottom dollar
is almost all that matters (and in areas he doesn't fully understand,
such as computers, it's extremely difficult to stop him from making
false economies because of the overriding instinct to choose on bottom
dollar only)

2. The bottom dollar attitude then feeds back into people who run GA
businesses. Since they are only willing to pay bottom dollar to be able
to offer bottom dollar to the student, quality inevitably suffers.

3. Since it's so incredibly price sensitive, which makes being
profitable so damned hard, the only people who run GA businesses (in the
GENERAL case) are enthusiasts and those passionate about GA. They are
almost never good businessmen. This is because the people who ARE good
businessmen (and maybe even passionate about GA) can quite plainly see
there is no money to be made because everything has to be bottom dollar
- including profits. The businessmen who are passionate about GA will do
something else that's profitable to fund their GA habit.
So the people who end up running GA businesses are clueless about
business, or not people-persons or both. This is why you get this
unhelpful attitude in many FBOs. A common fault amongst the general
'Pilot Personality' is 'does-not-suffer-fools-gladly' and hence a
newbie's questioning is often answered with the equivalent of 'Bugger
off and RTFM' (maybe not directly, but that's how it always feels).
Newbie therefore doesn't feel welcome and goes off and learns to sail or
play golf instead.

4. A corollary to this is many people in GA are *too* nice. Best example
is the mechanic we had in Houston for our plane - an EXCELLENT mechanic,
but vastly oversubscribed and forever skint because he was too nice to
raise his rates to more reflect market demand. Therefore, although his
rates were excellent and his work was fabulous, it would always take
forever to get an annual signed off. That of course lead to frustration.
It's quite possible that he's found that his business has a 'kinked'
demand curve thanks to bottom dollar. If he keeps his rates at present,
he'll be oversubscribed - but if he raises his rates $10/hr, so many
'bottom-dollar' seeking pilots will flee he won't be able to make any
money at it.

5. The base prices are very high to start with (about $800 for just one
new Millennium cylinder for our C-85 engine), leaving those in the
middle (the FBOs, the mechanics, the instructors) very little room to
charge what their time or experience is worth anyway to a very price
sensitive customer base.

Until this bottom-dollar mentality goes away (which it won't) GA will be
financially distressed.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Until this bottom-dollar mentality goes away (which it won't) GA will be
financially distressed.

I agree with much of what you have said, but I think you may be over-stating
this aspect a bit.

EVERY businessman is "bottom-line oriented" -- or he won't be around long.
And every consumer should be looking for the best deal. That's what makes
our economy work.

With GA, there is more to it than that.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.

Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.

At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).

I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.

Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?

I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
what happens to us.

[Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]

Good luck!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

Hear, hear Cecil. Great post.

I had a good instructor who was pretty much on time. My problems we with the
crappy aircraft and no communication as to when an aircraft was down for
maintenance. So I bought my own plane...

Marco

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...
The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.

Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already,
so
I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.

At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were
used
there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished
my
PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).

I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.

Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it
just
a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?

I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise
above.
You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is
not
what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
what happens to us.

[Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]

Good luck!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text
at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late





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Cecil-

I wish I were young at 40. And yes, I enjoy flying and want to fly.
And no there isnt more to the story, but one of the posts about poor
maintenance is too eerily familiar. It is something called way too
many obstacles (and not the 50' ones). But I also have a life to
lead, and not spending endless hours on the road, you have to draw a
reasonable line and balance somewhere.. I cant change the behavior of
an otherwise decent CFI who has serious punctuality problems, in a
situation of near monopoly, and a pathetic FBO that is the only game
in town. People like myself, despite having the money, the interest,
and desire are not a big priority in GA, and I have reconciled to that
in my decision. (E.g. only one AOPA "mentor" for my entire state). The
weather kind of tipped the scale for me. Watching those poor slobs
trying to handprop that junky tomahawk out in the snow today just
reinforced things for me. I really feel like i am missing out, but
the ecomomic health of GA really says a lot to people like me.



"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message .com...
The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.

Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.

At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).

I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.

Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?

I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
what happens to us.

[Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]

Good luck!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

I understand your frustration. When I started I got discouraged by
everyone including family and friends, and even the first CFI put a
wet blanket on the whole idea. I stopped for a few months, but I
started again, at a different FBO. Now I am a CFII, I teach aviation
at a community college and fly regularly. You have to want to do
something badly that you will not let anything get in the way. Since
there are no other FBO's in your area, you could consider taking a few
weeks off to go somewhere sunny and get your certificate.
Alternatively, do the hour long drive to the next airport until you
solo, then buy an airplane and fly yourself there for each lesson.
There are ways around every obstacle.



(Litwin) wrote in message . com...
Cecil-

I wish I were young at 40. And yes, I enjoy flying and want to fly.
And no there isnt more to the story, but one of the posts about poor
maintenance is too eerily familiar. It is something called way too
many obstacles (and not the 50' ones). But I also have a life to
lead, and not spending endless hours on the road, you have to draw a
reasonable line and balance somewhere.. I cant change the behavior of
an otherwise decent CFI who has serious punctuality problems, in a
situation of near monopoly, and a pathetic FBO that is the only game
in town. People like myself, despite having the money, the interest,
and desire are not a big priority in GA, and I have reconciled to that
in my decision. (E.g. only one AOPA "mentor" for my entire state). The
weather kind of tipped the scale for me. Watching those poor slobs
trying to handprop that junky tomahawk out in the snow today just
reinforced things for me. I really feel like i am missing out, but
the ecomomic health of GA really says a lot to people like me.



"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message .com...
The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.

Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.

At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).

I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.

Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?

I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
what happens to us.

[Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]

Good luck!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

Alternatively, do the hour long drive to the next airport...

When I started flying as a student pilot, it took literally all afternoon to
ride the buses (3 different city busses - one of which ran only every hour) to
the airport and 3 busses back (no car as a college student) to get an hour of
flight instruction.

If you want to fly bad enough, you do what you have to.

Soapbox mode OFF.

On 22 Jan 2004 06:26:06 -0800, (Litwin) wrote:

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I did check as to freelance CFIs in
this region, one is in Florida 8 months out of the year (gee I wonder
why) and not highly recommended, the other had his med certificate
pulled, and the other is well, on good information, a drunk so to
speak, and wouldnt have access to a plane. I also checked the other
airport 65 miles from here, a few I talked to were disappointed with
their flight instruction there. The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrafice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

I drove to the airport this am to submit my "resignation" and I did
give the reasons, while looking at them trying to handprop one of the
training planes. I was such an excellent student, what a
disappointing surprise blah blah blah, they dont get it and never
will. And if I were to get my PP certif., I would be likely flying
out of that place anyway.

I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late.

The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
the opportunity to find it rewarding.


Sorry to hear you're stopping your flying lessons, but given the conditions...
weather, condition of aircraft, condition of instructors, so few days of good
VFR weather, I can't say that I blame you. No matter how much we want to do
something, if it isn't enjoyable most of the time, we aren't going to continue.
I can't imagine flying under the conditions you describe. I've flown some old
aircraft and I've flown some new aircraft and in both cases the aircraft were
mechanically sound, the instructors were on time, professional and went out of
their way to make the learning experience enjoyable and as exciting as flying
itself.

Based on what you have experienced, it seems the logical solution would be to
move to a more accommodating climate, in a larger city with more options and
more students. I also realize that might not be at all practical for you, but
if you get the chance... go for it.

All GA is not like your experience. For instance, the FBO I fly from now has
all new Cessna 172's, 182's, one 206 and a Trinidad. The oldest Cessna on line
is a 2000 model year, the newest a 2003. There are three full time flight
instructors on call and the chief pilot and one instructor are there at all
times. I've had BFR's with two of the instructors and they were both very
professional and supportive. Take heart... there is still hope for GA.

Ron

The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
the opportunity to find it rewarding.

Well, I don't know about better circumstances. Last winter I nearly
went off currency (more than 90 days without a flight) because I
couldn't get a plane off the ground. It was too cold (we aren't
allowed to fly the Cubs below 20 degrees), the runway wasn't plowed,
the runway was sheet ice, the runway was deep in mud, the wind was
blowing 30 mph, I had a cold, I had a business appointment, etc.

Meanwhile the airport owner had spent so much money on plowing,
without corresponding rental income, that this year he decided not to
plow at all. There is four inches of chopped up snow on the runway,
with cold and wind most every day. I flew last Saturday and made the
shortest landing "roll" of my life. I swear the Cub stopped in 50
feet, between the wind and the snow cover.

To be sure, I'm only 20 miles from the airport, and I can within
reason fly any day I want. I fly 40-50 hours a year; I wish it were
more.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com