AIRNAV not publishing fuel prices...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:IQeSb.51817$U%5.286038@attbi_s03...

I feel for Paulo. He's operated this website full-time for a couple of
years, basically "on the house." Now that he's trying to actually make a
buck, everyone is down his throat. I say if an FBO is too damned cheap to
pay for their listing, that alone says enough to me that I will avoid the
place.


Don't get me wrong. I think that Paulo has done an incredible job
with Airnav. I tell anyone who will listen that it is the best
aviation site on the web. I also think he should make a buck on this
venture (lots of them, actually). I just think that his current
strategy will degrade the quality of the site.

There are lots of good mom & pop FBOs that are run on a shoestring
and don't do any advertising. That doesn't make them bad. You might
be content to avoid anyone who does not pay for an Airnav listing, but
if half of the FBOs disappear from the site, will it be as useful as
it once was? I don't think so. Ultimately, it's Paulo's call.
Personally, I'd be glad to pay an annual subscription fee to access
Airnav. It's a valuable resource to me.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"John Galban" wrote in message
om...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:IQeSb.51817$U%5.286038@attbi_s03...

I feel for Paulo. He's operated this website full-time for a couple of
years, basically "on the house." Now that he's trying to actually make
a
buck, everyone is down his throat. I say if an FBO is too damned cheap
to
pay for their listing, that alone says enough to me that I will avoid
the
place.


Don't get me wrong. I think that Paulo has done an incredible job
with Airnav. I tell anyone who will listen that it is the best
aviation site on the web. I also think he should make a buck on this
venture (lots of them, actually). I just think that his current
strategy will degrade the quality of the site.

There are lots of good mom & pop FBOs that are run on a shoestring
and don't do any advertising. That doesn't make them bad. You might
be content to avoid anyone who does not pay for an Airnav listing, but
if half of the FBOs disappear from the site, will it be as useful as
it once was? I don't think so.

Recall that all FBO's are listed, even those that pay nothing. They don't an
elaborate link, but their base info and fuel prices are listed.

Ultimately, it's Paulo's call.
Personally, I'd be glad to pay an annual subscription fee to access
Airnav. It's a valuable resource to me.

I find no real fault at all with his plan.

Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.
Accurate information will disappear. I think he should sell ads.
That's it. Or perhaps charge a subscription, though I question if all
us pilots would fork over anything.

I for one do not change my routes to obtain cheap gas. I stop where
convenient. At lunch I want a resturant on the field, if not I want to
borrow a courtesy car and go to a cafe. For evening stop I want a
hotel that will pick me up and drop me off. I don't want to navigate a
rental car to/from the hotel or pay the rental car fee. I only rent a
car when I need to do business or sightseeing nearby. I do shop gas
around my nearby airport, I know where the cheap gas is near here. The
service is of limited value to me. But I do know that others differ
and plan their flights based on it.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:IQeSb.51817$U%5.286038@attbi_s03...
One other issue I have with Airnav's new direction is what will
Paulo do about a crappy business that offers poor service or rips off
customers? If they pay their advertising fee, do they get negative
comments removed from their listing? If not, why would they pay?

I've wondered about that myself. Actually, I've always wondered how Paulo
has survived putting negative comments on his website, without getting sued.

There are some pretty graphic and acidic posts about some businesses.
Someone with a mouth-piece and deep pockets could make Paulo's life very
uncomfortable.

Right after we bought the hotel, I found a bad review of our place on
AirNav. It was, of course (!), from before we bought the place, and was a
really nasty one, written by a guy who claimed that he was "told by a
line-guy to avoid the place."

Paulo of course removed it from his site when he heard we were the new
owners, but THAT'S the kind of third-hand slander that could really get him
in hot water, IMHO.

I feel for Paulo. He's operated this website full-time for a couple of
years, basically "on the house." Now that he's trying to actually make a
buck, everyone is down his throat. I say if an FBO is too damned cheap to
pay for their listing, that alone says enough to me that I will avoid the
place.

Doug wrote:

Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.

Not always too cheap. They just don't care because it doesn't bring in
any business. Buddy of mine owns a self serve 12,000 gallon tank at an
airport near here. He sell 100LL for $2.19 a gallon. The guy across
the ramp, who a lot of people don't like, is the FBO and has long sold
fuel. He is on very shaky financial ground and is now forced to sell
fuel at the same price. Problem is he only buys 1000 gallons at a time
and can't get as good a price from the dealer. Here at the main airport
in Billings 100LL goes for about $2.90. Most traffic will stop here at
the main airport, even though 11 miles away you can save 70 cents a gallon.

Newps wrote in
news:4APSb.191598$I06.2115961@attbi_s01:

Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.

Not always too cheap. They just don't care because it doesn't bring
in any business.

I think there are more reasons. [And unfortunately, I don't know a good
solution to the problem.] I frequently find myself at a lot of small
rural airports around the southwest. Most of these are unattended. A
lot that *claim* to be attended simply have a guy who lives in a trailer
somewhere on the property and mows the grass and keeps the barb wire
fences mended in return for a sub-standard place to live.

Fuel is from a self-serve pump, billed as the owning cities utility
district. There is usually a pay phone and a public toilet/building (or
at least a designated tree).

The problem here is NOT the price of an Airnav listing, but rather that
the airport is not run as a profit center. Just who is going to agree
to run the listing? The guy mowing the field? He doesn't have the
authority to spend the $10 per year, nor does he care. He gets nothing
from the fuel flow. The city utility district? They just handle the
billing - it's a data processing center. You could spend $50 in long
distance calls (not to mention your time) just trying to find anyone to
give you a definitive yes or no about subscribing to Airnav for $10 per
year.

[And yes, this situation has other fallout - no one promotes aviation,
no one promotes the airport or flying, and the airport is always viewed
as (and is) a drain on the public coffers.]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

James M. Knox wrote:

Newps wrote in
news:4APSb.191598$I06.2115961@attbi_s01:


Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.

Not always too cheap. They just don't care because it doesn't bring
in any business.


I think there are more reasons. [And unfortunately, I don't know a good
solution to the problem.] I frequently find myself at a lot of small
rural airports around the southwest. Most of these are unattended. A
lot that *claim* to be attended simply have a guy who lives in a trailer
somewhere on the property and mows the grass and keeps the barb wire
fences mended in return for a sub-standard place to live.

Paulo mentioned he was shocked that a guy driving a Baron wouldn't cough
up a nominal amount each month for the service. The fact is we all
cough up a lot of nominal amounts each month for various services, all
an unbelievably good value. Pretty soon it ain't nominal anymore.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:BlTSb.148233$Rc4.1190979@attbi_s54...


Paulo mentioned he was shocked that a guy driving a Baron wouldn't cough
up a nominal amount each month for the service. The fact is we all
cough up a lot of nominal amounts each month for various services, all
an unbelievably good value. Pretty soon it ain't nominal anymore.

Umm...yes...so what's the punch line?

What price good information?

Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.

Those with high prices often provide a higher level of service. Not
everyone always wants the cheap price. Believe me, I like cheap fuel.
But I also do a lot of meetings at FBOs. An FBO with a conference
room, meeting facilities, a speakerphone, internet connection, and a
courtesy car provides me a valuable office space for a day -- for
free. Well, not for tree, but for the extra cost of the fuel. I
don't mind paying extra for the better services, and if the way to
charge is through the fuel price, that is fine with me.

If I am just passing through on a refueling stop, with no wife or
customers, I don't mind the "FBO in a double-wide" that offers cheaper
fuel.

Different missions, different needs.

The FBOs with higher prices are the ones that should want to advetise
the most -- they want to show the services and amenities they offer,
in a way to justify the higher prices they charge.

Paulo Santos
AirNav, LLC http://www.airnav.com/

"Paulo Santos" wrote in message
om...
Those with high prices will not want their prices to be listed. Those
with low prices are too cheap (poor) to pay to list their prices.

Those with high prices often provide a higher level of service. Not
everyone always wants the cheap price. Believe me, I like cheap fuel.
But I also do a lot of meetings at FBOs. An FBO with a conference
room, meeting facilities, a speakerphone, internet connection, and a
courtesy car provides me a valuable office space for a day -- for
free. Well, not for tree, but for the extra cost of the fuel. I
don't mind paying extra for the better services, and if the way to
charge is through the fuel price, that is fine with me.

If I am just passing through on a refueling stop, with no wife or
customers, I don't mind the "FBO in a double-wide" that offers cheaper
fuel.

Different missions, different needs.

The FBOs with higher prices are the ones that should want to advetise
the most -- they want to show the services and amenities they offer,
in a way to justify the higher prices they charge.

Paulo Santos
AirNav, LLC http://www.airnav.com/

Yet this one inverts all the rationale.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KCOS

I've wondered about that myself. Actually, I've always wondered how Paulo
has survived putting negative comments on his website, without getting sued.

Integrity, paucity and fear.

Businesses see that we try hard to do the right thing. That alone
gets us the respect that keeps another honorable business or person
with integrity from suing us.

Shortage of assets also helps. Even if they sued, there wouldn't be
much to collect. So what's the point?

And finally, fear of retribution. If they sued, it would be fair game
for us to post their suit on the web site. After all, it is public
record. The damage they would be doing to themselves would be far
greater than the damage inflicted by any comment.

I feel for Paulo. He's operated this website full-time for a couple of
years, basically "on the house."

Make that 9 years.

Now that he's trying to actually make a
buck, everyone is down his throat. I say if an FBO is too damned cheap to
pay for their listing, that alone says enough to me that I will avoid the
place.

Way to go, Jay. Make sure FBOs know that.

Paulo Santos
AirNav, LLC http://www.airnav.com/