when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...


As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the
controller to use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being
told to stand clear - and it might be a good idea...


Specific phrases for controller usage are found in FAA Order 7110.65, but
there is no phrase like "cancel your last instruction and now comply with
this instruction", nor should there be. Previous instructions are simply
overridden by subsequent instructions. For example, an aircraft may have
been instructed to "fly heading 360", and a bit later is instructed to
"turn
right heading 020". The 360 heading isn't cancelled prior to the issuance
of the 020 heading, the 360 heading is simply overridden by the 020
heading.




So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...


Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."



So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the
aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.



Steven, just as you said that the previous instructions would not be
explicitly cancelled, so too is the "remain clear." Using the tail number -
especially with the phrase "radar contact" - definitely makes it for me. I
would enter the Class C.

I would expect the following phrases to keep me clear of the Class C - 1)
"aircraft calling NE of class C, where did you say you wanted to go?" or 2)
Cessna 1234, continue to remain clear of the class C airspace. What are your
intentions?"

I would find this one confusing "Cessna 1234, where did you say you wanted
to go?" It uses the tail number which is enough but indicates that the
controller is still trying to figure out what to do with me. I would
question whether that establishes radio contact to enter the Class C.

The point should be that this isn't a game to try to fool the controller
into saying something that unknowingly grants permission. When in doubt,
double check.

-------------------------------
Travis

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:40:37 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

If the controller who issued the "remain clear of Class C" instruction
was not the controller responsible for operations inside of the Class
C airspace, it would seem that radio contact with the controller who
is would grant permission to enter. In any event, to bring the issue
to the fore, I would have said, "facility name approach, Cessna 1234
location altitude _restricted_outside_Class_C, request..."

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

[snip]

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO...
Both agree that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class
C when the controller establishes radio contact using the tail number;
and does not instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

That's true, but that's not what happened in this case. In this case the
pilot was instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace.

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...

Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."

....and once again with "November 1234, radar contact..." Where, in that
"radar contact" communication, does the controller say "remain clear..."?

If N1234 was to remain clear, the controller needed to say so. If the
"remain clear" instruction was to remain in place, what approved phraseology
would the controller then use to remove the restriction? You keep insinuating
that there must be some magic phrase, but you don't tell us what it is.

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..

Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

And what would that instruction be, if "November 1234, radar contact..."
were not sufficient (as clearly laid out in the AIM)? Pray enlighten us.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If
so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket
authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance, you
won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification, you
could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk
regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR
to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your
scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established
without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light.


"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:B%4Xb.306189$na.460859@attbi_s04...

How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If
so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket
authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance,
you
won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification,
you
could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk
regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR
to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your
scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established
without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light.


Wrong. He had been instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace. He
doesn't have the green light until that instruction is superseded.

On 13 Feb 2004 04:13:24 -0800, (Arden Prinz)
wrote:

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace.

Charlie airspace requires established two way radio comm before entry.
You had this. However, the controller also told you to stay clear of
Charlie airspace. Therefore you needed to get cleared into Charlie
airspace before making the turn and did not - so I believe this was an
airspace incursion.

Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification. I would say especially so with an Air Force base - you
never know what kind of wierd operations they may have going inside
their airspace.

-Nathan

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:28:56 GMT, Nathan Young
wrote:

On 13 Feb 2004 04:13:24 -0800, (Arden Prinz)
wrote:

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace.

Charlie airspace requires established two way radio comm before entry.
You had this. However, the controller also told you to stay clear of
Charlie airspace. Therefore you needed to get cleared into Charlie
airspace before making the turn and did not - so I believe this was an
airspace incursion.

Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification. I would say especially so with an Air Force base - you
never know what kind of wierd operations they may have going inside
their airspace.

Update: I didn't thoroughly read your original post. I didn't realize
your original call to approach was on the ground (and that probably
several minutes passed before contacting that controller again in the
air). That certainly obfuscates things.

I think that once two-way comm and radar contact was established with
you in the air, since the controller did not issue the 'Stay clear of
C' command - you did no wrong.

I still stand by my original comment that it wouldn't have hurt to
clarify intentions with the controller.

-Nathan

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
. com...

[snip]
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

....such as "November 1234, radar contact..."

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

...such as "November 1234, radar contact..."


An instruction is an authoritative direction to be obeyed. What part of
"November 1234, radar contact..." do you consider to be an instruction?