when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.



(Arden Prinz) wrote in message . com...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.

Except in this case, the "remain clear" was issued before a VFR departure
and is meaningless. Conversely, if the ATC and the pilot established radio
contact with tail number ID included *just before departure*, it does not
mean that the pilot is cleared to depart and enter the Class C. That radio
contact and it's implied clearance is equally meaningless. The
communications aren't meaningful until the pilot is in flight.


..

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...

Except in this case, the "remain clear" was issued before a
VFR departure and is meaningless.


Why is it meaningless? What gives you the idea that an aircraft cannot be
told to remain clear of Class C airspace prior to departure?



Conversely, if the ATC and the pilot established radio
contact with tail number ID included *just before departure*, it does not
mean that the pilot is cleared to depart and enter the Class C.


Why not?



That radio contact and it's implied clearance is equally meaningless. The
communications aren't meaningful until the pilot is in flight.


Why is it meaningless? It meets the entry requirements.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message om...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.

Except in this case, the "remain clear" was issued before a VFR departure
and is meaningless. Conversely, if the ATC and the pilot established radio
contact with tail number ID included *just before departure*, it does not
mean that the pilot is cleared to depart and enter the Class C. That radio
contact and it's implied clearance is equally meaningless. The
communications aren't meaningful until the pilot is in flight.


.

I don't think so. When tower clears an aircraft for takeoff (at the
primary class C airport or from a satellite airport), the aircraft is
cleared for entering the Class C airspace.

remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

"did not assign any vectors".. fist clue
"did not repeat the remain clear".. why repeat a clearance you are already
complying with.. that's radio congestion

presumed "understanding" is like assuming.. not good

BT

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

In article IkSXb.18910$IF1.1264@fed1read01, BTIZ
wrote:

remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace
anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.



You lost me. If a pilot requests to transition a class C, the controller has
several options: 1) ignore the call. 2) "aircraft calling, remain clear of
the class C." 3) "Cessna 1234, remain clear of the class C." 4) "Cessna
1234, standby" 5) "Cessna 1234, roger." 6) "Cessna 1234, altimeter setting
30.04." or even 7) "Cessna 1234 transition approved."

1, 2, and 3 are indications that the tranistion is not approved. 4, 5, 6 and
7 are clearances to enter. I agree with Tom that you will probably not hear
"cleared to enter the class C" but, more to the point, you certainly don't
to hear it before entering the class C.

Why would you say it is simpler to just clear the guy? The simplest thing to
do would be to ignore the call.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in
message
rthlink.net...

You should never hear a controller utter the words "Cleared to enter
(or cleared through)the Class C airspace". You do not need a clearance
to enter Class C, only establishment of two-way radio communications
and a Mode C transponder.


But pilots request clearance through Class C (and Class D) airspace
anyway.
What would you have the controller do, tell the pilot "unable clearance
through Class C airspace"? It's simpler just to "clear" the guy.



You lost me. If a pilot requests to transition a class C, the controller
has
several options: 1) ignore the call. 2) "aircraft calling, remain clear of
the class C." 3) "Cessna 1234, remain clear of the class C." 4) "Cessna
1234, standby" 5) "Cessna 1234, roger." 6) "Cessna 1234, altimeter setting
30.04." or even 7) "Cessna 1234 transition approved."


But the pilot didn't request transition through the Class C airspace, the
pilot requested clearance through the Class C airspace.



1, 2, and 3 are indications that the tranistion is not approved. 4, 5, 6
and
7 are clearances to enter. I agree with Tom that you will probably not
hear
"cleared to enter the class C" but, more to the point, you certainly don't
to hear it before entering the class C.

Why would you say it is simpler to just clear the guy? The simplest thing
to
do would be to ignore the call.


Because responding "Cessna 1234 cleared through Class C airspace" is simpler
than explaining to the guy that there are no clearances for VFR transition
of Class C airspace.

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:IkSXb.18910$IF1.1264@fed1read01...
remain clear instructions end.. when you receive a "cleared through or
cleared to enter" instruction... just asking questions to figure out where
you are going.. does not indicate permission to enter

"did not assign any vectors".. fist clue
"did not repeat the remain clear".. why repeat a clearance you are already
complying with.. that's radio congestion

presumed "understanding" is like assuming.. not good

BT

This is not true. An explicit clearance to enter a class C is not
necessary - only radio contact. If, after having said "remain clear" the
controller comes back with "Cessna 1234, where did you want to go?" that is
an implicit clearance to enter the class C. All that is required is radio
contact.

Controller's know the rules. If they don't want you in their airspace, they
will ignore you or repeat the "remain clear" instruction.

-------------------------------
Travis



"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.