when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Steven, just as you said that the previous instructions would not be
explicitly cancelled, so too is the "remain clear." Using the tail
number - especially with the phrase "radar contact" - definitely
makes it for me. I would enter the Class C.


Then you would be operating an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an
area in which air traffic control is exercised and thus be in violation of
FAR 91.123(b). An instruction to "remain clear" is implicitly overridden by
an instruction that requires or permits entry of the Class C airspace. "Fly
heading 110, vector for traffic" would do it, so would "proceed on course"
or "enter a right base for runway 32", but "radar contact" would not.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Steven, just as you said that the previous instructions would not be
explicitly cancelled, so too is the "remain clear." Using the tail
number - especially with the phrase "radar contact" - definitely
makes it for me. I would enter the Class C.


Then you would be operating an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in
an
area in which air traffic control is exercised and thus be in violation of
FAR 91.123(b). An instruction to "remain clear" is implicitly overridden
by
an instruction that requires or permits entry of the Class C airspace.
"Fly
heading 110, vector for traffic" would do it, so would "proceed on course"
or "enter a right base for runway 32", but "radar contact" would not.



I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."

I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C. Using your example of a
subsequent instruction implicitly canceling a previous instruction applies
here as well.


-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft
callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside
the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to
the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."


The material you quoted does not support your position.



I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C.


Yes, but that's not the case here. In this case there was acknowledgement
of a specific aircraft with a specific instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace.



Using your example of a subsequent instruction implicitly
canceling a previous instruction applies here as well.


It doesn't apply in this case because the instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace was the only instruction issued.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft
callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside
the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to
the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace
and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."


The material you quoted does not support your position.

Sure it does. My position is that radio contact where the controller uses
your tail number and lacking an explicit "remain clear" grants permission to
enter the class C. Note 1 above says this. You seem to be saying that once a
"remain clear" has been issued that the only way to reverse that is with an
explicit "cleared to enter the class C." The AIM doesn't really address this
sequence of events but does not refer to a specific clearance to enter the
class C either.




I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is
sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C.


Yes, but that's not the case here. In this case there was acknowledgement
of a specific aircraft with a specific instruction to remain clear of the
Class C airspace.

I think it is the case as presented by the original poster. He had received
a "remain clear" prior to take off. After departure, he had a radio exchange
that included his tail number and took that as permission to enter the class
C.




Using your example of a subsequent instruction implicitly
canceling a previous instruction applies here as well.


It doesn't apply in this case because the instruction to remain clear of
the
Class C airspace was the only instruction issued.



Again, after departure, the pilot had a radio exchange where the controller
used his tail number. That grants permission to enter the class C.

I am based at a class C airport. I have heard "remain clear" many times. I
have never heard "cleared to enter." Subsequent radio contact that uses my
tail number is enough to rescind the "remain clear" instruction.

-------------------------------
Travis

I would find this one confusing "Cessna 1234, where did you say you wanted
to go?" It uses the tail number which is enough but indicates that the
controller is still trying to figure out what to do with me. I would
question whether that establishes radio contact to enter the Class C.


Radio contact has been established. You have pemission to enter. It is not an
entry requirment that the controller know where you are or where you want to
go. See and avoid is not superceded. While it is sorted out, you may proceed
in.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Radio contact has been established. You have pemission to enter.


No. Radio contact has been established and the pilot has been instructed to
remain clear of the Class C airspace. You do not have permission to enter.



It is not an entry requirment that the controller know where you are
or where you want to go. See and avoid is not superceded. While
it is sorted out, you may proceed in.


True dat.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:40:37 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

If the controller who issued the "remain clear of Class C" instruction
was not the controller responsible for operations inside of the Class
C airspace, it would seem that radio contact with the controller who
is would grant permission to enter. In any event, to bring the issue
to the fore, I would have said, "facility name approach, Cessna 1234
location altitude _restricted_outside_Class_C, request..."

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

If the controller who issued the "remain clear of Class C" instruction
was not the controller responsible for operations inside of the Class
C airspace, it would seem that radio contact with the controller who
is would grant permission to enter.


Entry is based on establishing two-way radio communications with the ATC
facility, not with a specific controller.

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

[snip]

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO...
Both agree that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class
C when the controller establishes radio contact using the tail number;
and does not instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

That's true, but that's not what happened in this case. In this case the
pilot was instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace.

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...

Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."

....and once again with "November 1234, radar contact..." Where, in that
"radar contact" communication, does the controller say "remain clear..."?

If N1234 was to remain clear, the controller needed to say so. If the
"remain clear" instruction was to remain in place, what approved phraseology
would the controller then use to remove the restriction? You keep insinuating
that there must be some magic phrase, but you don't tell us what it is.

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..

Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

And what would that instruction be, if "November 1234, radar contact..."
were not sufficient (as clearly laid out in the AIM)? Pray enlighten us.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

...and once again with "November 1234, radar contact..." Where, in that
"radar contact" communication, does the controller say "remain clear..."?


Nowhere. Where in that "radar contact" communication does the controller
say anything that overrides the instruction to "remain clear of Class
Charlie"?



If N1234 was to remain clear, the controller needed to say so.


The controller DID say so, what do you think "November 1234 remain clear of
Class Charlie" means?



If the "remain clear" instruction was to remain in place, what
approved phraseology would the controller then use to remove
the restriction?


Where do you people get this idea that ATC instructions last only until the
next exchange of communications, whatever that exchange may be?

For the third or fourth time now, the controller would have to issue an
instruction that permitted or required entry into Class C airspace.
Examples are, "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector for sequencing",
enter right base for runway XX", etc.



You keep insinuating that there must be some magic phrase, but
you don't tell us what it is.


I never said or implied that there was any specific "magic phrase".



And what would that instruction be, if "November 1234, radar contact..."
were not sufficient (as clearly laid out in the AIM)? Pray enlighten us.


Where does the AIM say that "radar contact" allows an aircraft to enter
Class C airspace that had established radio communications and been
instructed to remain outside of it? Pray, enlighten me.