My first hour in a complex aircraft, the Beech V35B

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?
If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go
nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most
pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Or have I missed something in this thread?

Mike

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:20:28 -0600, Mike Rhodes
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?

No.
If you do your W&B calcs it's not a problem. The older Bo "Prior to
74 only had 1000# useful load and the CG shift isn't a problem like
the more recent models. However in either case it's not due to a CG
shift. When within the CG a Bo stalled "In Ground Effect" does not
drop the nose. I can load mine with 100 gallons (30 in the tip tanks,
50 mains, and 20 in the aux) and never have to worry about it going
out of CG) if I start in the middle.

If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go

You always need to watch the speed of any airplane.

nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most

It will go nose down if you want it too, but why would you want it to
drop the nose. Speed and power = attitude. IF the airspeed indicator
goes out, you know that so many inches of MP and so many degrees up on
the AI are still going to get you where you want to go. With the
power set you rarely have to look at the instruments if you know what
it's supposed to look like outside.

When I land, I do full stall landings and I keep the nose in the air
until I no longer have enough elevator authority to keep it there and
that is down around 30 to 40 MPH which is well after touch down.
(Stall with me alone and half fuel is only 55 MPH) That would make
the last part of final at 71 MPH which is one steep descent.

pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Pure baloney.
The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

If need be I can quote right from the ABS/ASF Pilot Proficiency
Training Manual as to their requirements. That class runs 10 hours of
class room and 4 to 5 hours of flight time.

There is no problem bringing in a Bo at 1.3 Vso in calm conditions. If
the winds kick up, add half the gust factor. The Bo is a very good
short field airplane for those who learn how to handle them.


Or have I missed something in this thread?

Could be?
According to the ABS the big problem is pilots who make their own
rules and add a bit of speed instead of following the POH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Mike

In article ,
Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...

One thing that took me a while to appreciate when I transitioned from
C-172 spring steel gear to my Comanche's strut cusioned mains is that
you really do need to thump slightly to compress the struts and get some
traction. If you roll it on you are still flying, you just happen to
be dragging your tires along at the same time. And it extends the
transition between steering with the rudder and steering with the
nosewheel, which in a crosswind is a recipe for getting sideways (which
your mains will happily accommodate since they don't have much weight
yet).

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Peter,

Congratulations!

I have recently transitioned into an S35 with a 300HP IO-550 . What an
airplane!

These airplanes are real movers, are very slippery, and descents have
to be planned well in advance. It's very easy to get to VNE quickly
when you nose it over. In the airplane I'm flying I've found that once
I get down to TPA or level outside the FAF, 18" and 2400RPM gets me
down to 140kts pretty quickly if altitude is held. Once the gear and 10
degrees of flaps are out it flys like a Cherokee and is easy to land.
I've been told that (at least in the airplane I'm flying) it can take
on some ugly characteritics if you get slow with full flaps, so I've
been taught to delay full flaps until the runway is made.

I envy your ownership of one of these birds...Enjoy it!



In article , Peter
R. wrote:

good post snipped

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:42:22 -0500, Tom Fleischman
wrote:

Peter,

Congratulations!

I have recently transitioned into an S35 with a 300HP IO-550 . What an
airplane!

These airplanes are real movers, are very slippery, and descents have
to be planned well in advance. It's very easy to get to VNE quickly
when you nose it over. In the airplane I'm flying I've found that once
I get down to TPA or level outside the FAF, 18" and 2400RPM gets me

I typically fly the approaches at 120MPH.

down to 140kts pretty quickly if altitude is held. Once the gear and 10
degrees of flaps are out it flys like a Cherokee and is easy to land.

Except for the fuel consumption and the Cherokee is known for it's
docile handeling. :-)) OTOH the Bo is probably one of the easiest
planes to land that's out there. (once you get used to the
interconnected controls)

I've been told that (at least in the airplane I'm flying) it can take
on some ugly characteritics if you get slow with full flaps, so I've
been taught to delay full flaps until the runway is made.

When light they have an almost unbelievably slow stall (mine with me
and half fuel is 55 MPH). Fly the book figures and they are quite
predictable. Stall it and it'll show you just how unforgiving it can
become. When light I typically fly the later part of final around 75
MPH. The same is true for balked landing with every thing hanging
out. Instructors who are used to primary students may tend to forget
that you do not jam the throttle in, but ease in the power. If you
are in the round out, or about to flare and jam in the throttle, it's
likely to come right around sideways. Yet the difference is only a
half second to a full second to ease in the throttle.

Do this with an instructor who is thoroughly familiar with the
Bonanzas.
Take it up to altitude, and try the equivalent of a balked landing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


I envy your ownership of one of these birds...Enjoy it!



In article , Peter
R. wrote:

good post snipped

Okay, a couple more comments in addition to the excellent postings
already made...

- Weight and Balance. The Bonanza, because of it's leading edge fuel
tanks, develops and aft cg as fuel is burned.
ALWAYS calculate a takeoff and a LANDING cg. You may takeoff within
range, but depending on your leg length, the fuel burn will move the cg
aft of the rear limit.

- Emergency gear extension. This is where you want a good autopilot or
someone in the right seat to fly the airplane while you put your seat
all the way back and see just what it feels like to hand crank the gear
down. (50 turns on that little handle.)

- Go to Avweb and download all John Deakin's columns on flying complex
airplanes and leaning.

Closing comments.
The Bonanza is a sturdy, well built airplane. Its clean aerodynamics
will bite you if you don't pay attention. Learn to slow down gradually,
don't come blasting into the pattern at cruise speed and yank the power
off. Have your descents and approaches planned by the time you are 50
miles from your destination so you can implement them in a planned
fashion (reduce 1 inch mp per minute so that you are at landing power on
downwind).

Congrats on getting yourself into a Bo, they are indeed fine airplanes.

I transitioned to mine from cherokees and skyhawks, and there were 2 things
that really took some getting used to, besides the speed and comfort!!

The first is that nose-up tendency when changing from high power climb to
cruise. You need to anticipate the slightly nose down attitude and prepare
to trim aggresively, and it seems like you've already 'got it'.

The second is that the slipperiness (word?) can get you into trouble if the
autopilot is not engaged and you take your hands off the yoke. I was VFR
and flew into some soup and needed a popup IFR clearance. While copying the
route I dropped my clipboard, and in the few seconds it took to recover it,
the plane went into a 30 degree, 800fpm descent!! Yikes!! Now I make sure
the AP is on if I intend to do any significant heads-down time.

Even now, after several hundred hours, I still can't get over how docile and
easy she is to handle once the gear and flaps go down. Get the airspeed
right over the fence and it's easy to land and uses very little runway to
boot.

Welcome to the Bo club, enjoy your new bird.

Congrats to you.

I just received my high performance endorsement today. I bought into a
Cessna 206 about three weeks ago. I don't have the retracts, but the
extra hp, cowl flaps, constant speed prop, and just plane much bigger
plane have taken a lot to get use to. Actually, I'm still not use to
it, but, this is just the license to learn and get better.

All the best, and remember... If you don't like it, go around!