Instrument rating??

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from
IFR
training?


I concede that IFR training may not entail these subjects (except for
attitude flying and possibly ground reference), but you definitely need the
same skills, specifically:


Pilotage.

Better know how to do this even under IFR. Electrical systems don't care
whether you filed or not.

Ground reference maneuvers.

You could argue that "circle to land" requires similar skills, but I won't
make a fuss on this one.

Basic attitude flying.

This is DEFINITELY covered under IFR training.

VFR chart
interpretation (wrt low altitude rubbernecking).

Most CFIIs teach using both VFR and IFR charts in case Murphy shows up. I
guess the tacit assumption is that you already know how to read a VFR chart
and can recognize things that might get you in trouble in an emergency.

These are the skills you need
for low level marginal vfr flight.
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Mark Astley" wrote
I wonder if minimums in this case are being misinterpreted. For me, the
reason for a 2k minimum (and at least 1 mile visibility) is not because I
don't feel comfortable shooting an ILS down to 200', it's because I fly a
single engine plane and I want an out if the engine decides to take the day
off.

That's actually quite sensible. My point is that if you're goint to
stick to those minimums, you woud probably be safer flying that
weather VFR under the bottom rather than IFR. It's not necessarily
easier - but with the right training, I think it's safer. I've
snipped the rest of what you wrote, but I do very much agree with it.
I take a pretty dim view of single engine IFR over mountains, or with
ceilings of less than 1000 ft - not because I'd never do it, but
because I HAVE done it and never really felt good about it. In the
end, I wound up with a twin.

What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR
training?

Low level navigation and planning, mostly. Planning a route to be
flown at low level is a lot different when you have to follow rivers,
roads, and railroads for obstruction clearance and navigation. The
available cues under a 1000 ft ceiling are a lot different than they
are at higher altitudes, and mistakes can be deadly. If you can't
effectively do an impromptu visual diversion at low altitude and in
low vis, you lack essential safety skills for low altitude VFR.

The emergency procedures are different too. You have to be prepared
to make a precautionary off-airport landing with power, and that means
practice landings on soft and/or rough fields, training in field
selection, etc. Uphill or into the wind? Cow pasture or horse
pasture? Newly ploughed or newly harvested? These are all major
issues.

Michael

On 11 Mar 2004 07:29:45 -0800, (Michael) wrote in
Message-Id: :

Planning a route to be
flown at low level is a lot different when you have to follow rivers,
roads, and railroads for obstruction clearance and navigation. The
available cues under a 1000 ft ceiling are a lot different than they
are at higher altitudes, and mistakes can be deadly.

That's what got Frank Tallman; he thought he was following Ortega
Highway through the pass, but he was actually in (blind) Trubuco
Canyon during an exceptionally severe storm.

Michael,

I take a pretty dim view of single engine IFR over mountains, or with
ceilings of less than 1000 ft


Serious question: What's the basis of that dim view (apart from the
need to rationalize having a twin g)? I just don't see it reflected
in accident numbers, but maybe I am missing something.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
"Mark Astley" wrote
Just to give you a data point...

I guess I fall into the low time pilot category at about 250 hours TT.

You do. When you're that low time, a lot of things make a difference
that will be irrelevant at 500+ hours.

True enough. But at 500+ hrs, it still made a difference to us.

Care to cite the "magic number" of piloting hrs where the IR makes
no difference to insurance rates in simple fixed-gear planes?

Thanks,
Sydney

Mark Astley wrote:

Of course, this may be a break due to TT
rather than an IA, except that I don't think you get a break because of TT
until at least 300 hours.

I spoke to the Cessna insurance people at the AOPA flying at Frederick a few
years ago. They said their first price break is at 210 hours.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.