Using thermals to climb?

Michael,

That's ALWAYS the safest option.

Not if you drive instead g.


You know, some of us fly entirely without engines - and we fly cross
country.


You know, I hold a glider rating...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevadas. I can often
get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
some bumps.

-Robert


(Kees Mies) wrote in message . com...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevada. I can often
get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
some bumps.

-Robert

I know a pilot who would fly his C-152II (solo and light) over to Reno on a
fairly regular basis. He often talked of using some of the summer thermals
that would bubble up under the 'cloud streets' that would form on his way
through Sacramento. He eventually gave up the pursuit because in the
summers he would spend great amounts of time in a slow shallow circular
climb (not in a thermal) trying to gain enough altitude to fly back over the
Sierras along I-80. I remember raising more than an eyebrow when he first
mentioned this, but he pointed out that he always traveled light (just him
and a light bag) and that in terms of power to size when compared to a C-172
that he (in his C152II) had 'more' horsepower relative to the size of the
aircraft he flew.

His story made the hairs on my neck, stand on end (I've only been over to
Truckee airport in a C172 with one other passenger (a CFI that I was doing a
high altitude checkout with) and the 'climb performance' was certainly
different than what I had been used to in the comparative 'flatlands' that I
normally flew).

I do want to make it a point to take one of those high-altitude courses in
Colorado for a mini-vacation some time. I'd really like to know more than I
do (though I've read Sparky's book, Mountain Flying and a host of others on
the same subject),,, I guess I want more practical experience (with an
instructor, nearby) at the altitudes of some of those airports in Colorado.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

www.coloradopilots.org

Two Colorado Mountain flying courses this summer, both at APA (just
SE of Denver in the 'burbs). That's the full-day ground class. The
practical is arranged with an instructor for another time.

Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said that
there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Oops... just got it,,, no need to explain.... You were simply referring to
ACTUAL flying portion ('practical', so-to-speak, is set-up separately).

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
news
Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said
that
there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

(Kees Mies) wrote
My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?

Not at all. Do it all the time in similar circumstances.

If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Based on your registration, I assume you are German. Suggest you read
Cross Country Soaring (Streckensegelflug, I think - does that
translate correctly?) by Reichmann. It's probably overkill, but it's
a wonderfully comprehensive book that goes into a lot of depth about
soaring meteorology.

Once you have some idea of where and when you can expect lift, just
practice. A few flighs in a glider also wouldn't hurt.

Michael

I used to soar quite a bit. You can definitely get some help from thermals
if you pay attention to the VSI and your sense of acceleration (i.e. your
butt). In fact, learning to correlate the VSI with the 'seat of your pants'
is key. The VSI is showing you what happened seconds ago. You feel the
acceleration long before. Reacting to the acceleration and then calibrating
what you feel with the VSI is how it's done.

I wouldn't advocate trying to circle much. It can be done but unless you
are trying to clear some mountains, I wouldn't bother trading forward
progress for height. Many thermals in most places are going to be too small
to do it effectively.

In a long cross country climb, you can do several things:
1) When encountering lift, pull up and slow down to the slowest speed you
feel comfortable at or above Vy (engine cooling and visibility may be 2
limiting factors). Conversely, when encountering sink, let the plane speed
up and get thru it as fast as possible.
2) When encountering lift, note which wing rises. Immediately put that wing
down a few degrees and turn slightly in that direction. It is most likely
where stronger lift may be.

The ground is of little use at normal cruise/climb altitudes but pay
attention to the clouds. Puffy, fresh growing cumulus clouds have thermals
under them. Often, slight route changes based on the clouds will put you in
more lift than sink. If the clouds are lined up, it's a cloud street and if
it's aligned with your direction of flight, the gods are smiling at you. If
you hit it right, you'll be at cloud base before you know it.

In cruise, instead of maintaining altitude exactly, allowing the lift to
lift you while slowing a bit, and diving thru the sink is more efficient.

The interesting part is that if you fly accurate altitudes and correct your
direction with a little sloppiness, you will tend to fly in the worst air in
the most inefficient manner. That is, you'll tend to find and fly in
sinking air. What you want to do is turn towards the areas that are pushing
you away and pull up when a thermal kicks you up and push forward when you
are sinking.

Reichmann's book is one of the definitive works but way too much for what
we're talking about here. A soaring pilot with someone with some glider
x-country experience would be more instructive.


"Kees Mies" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

Go for it. During my initial training in Phoenix, my instructor and I
did some thermaling in a Cessna 172. We obtained a +500 fpm rate of
climb with the engine at full idle while circling in a thermal.

Dean

(Kees Mies) wrote in message . com...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

It probably isn't worth it if you are going cross country. It is very
much worth it if you are staying local and have some reason to
get to altitude.

On climb out cross country, speed up when you are not in lift,
slow down in lift. Go where the bumpy air is (under the clouds).
The reason to speed up when in the sink is to get through it
as soon as possible. The opposite when in lift. Full throttle all
of the time.

At cruise, don't drive down the non-cloud streets. Drive down
the cloud streets. The blank area is where the sink is.

Power plane drivers often don't like bumpy rides, so prefer to
fly in the sink and then complain about their draggy plane or
sour engine. In power planes, it is considered bad form to
deviate from your altitude. This is opposite of what is needed
to get there the fastest on the least gas. When in sink, you
want to lose more altitude (go faster), then gain it all back
(go slower, pull higher) when you hit lift. The instructors
and check pilots would take a very dim view of sailplane
techniques. Efficiency loses on this one.

As far as recognizing thermals, you really should get some
glider pilot help. It can be done, although not as well as in
a glider with accurate instrumentation. Power plane instrumentation
sucks. The lead/lag in the rate of climb is really bad. The nudge in
the seat combined with an anticipation of rate of climb indication
is your instrumentation system in the power plane. Don't even
bother to circle if you are uncomfortable with banks in excess of
45 degrees within a knot or two of stall buffet. 60 degrees is common.
This is really steep. Most pilots overestimate how steeply they
are banking.


In article ,
(Kees Mies) wrote:
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.