Flying under IMC

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Is that likely to work? ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

As Ditch says, ATC has the authority to deny the clearance, of course. But
since it makes their life easier, I don't know why they would. I have never
been denied a request for a "VFR on top" clearance. Granted, I fly VFR much
more often than IFR, but I just can't see why ATC would ever deny a "VFR on
top" clearance.

Pete

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Peter Duniho wrote:

the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to
whereever you were headed.

Is that likely to work? ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

They might in very busy terminal airspace that you are inbound to. They
will be gleeful that you want to remove yourself from the separation pool
otherwise.

On 28 Jun 2004 12:11:27 -0700, (Peter Bauer)
wrote:

Hi,
i'm asking myself to make an Instrument Rating or not.
There are some questions to IFR-Pilots :

.. when flying under a flight plan (IFR) can i fly routes at my choice ?

You have to submit a route when you file the IFR plan. In flight, you
can request changes to the route but it is nowhere the flexibility of
VFR.

e.g. take-off under IMC, enroute 10 min under IFR (clouds), 30 min VFR on
top, descending to my destination under IMC (through cloúds), landing
at destination under VMC (below the lower layer of clouds)

This is very common and typically would be accomplished entirely on an
IFR flightplan. The exception would be if VMC conditions exist below
the cloud layer at the destination, which would allow a visual
approach, or cancel IFR and complete the flight as VFR.

.. when reaching IMC after 30 min. VMC ("round trip under VFR") do i have
to file a flight plan (IFR) or am i able to fly only by reference to the
instruments through an e.g. 300 ft Layer of clouds and after that, when
reaching "On Top" fly again under VFR ?

In the States, in class G airspace, you can fly IFR without a
clearance. Fortunately, class G is the exception, and pretty much
everywhere else, a clearance is required to fly IFR.

-Nathan

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...

.. when flying under a flight plan (IFR) can i fly routes at my choice ?
e.g. take-off under IMC, enroute 10 min under IFR (clouds), 30 min VFR
on
top, descending to my destination under IMC (through cloúds),
landing
at destination under VMC (below the lower layer of clouds)

.. when reaching IMC after 30 min. VMC ("round trip under VFR") do i have
to file a flight plan (IFR) or am i able to fly only by reference to
the
instruments through an e.g. 300 ft Layer of clouds and after that,
when
reaching "On Top" fly again under VFR ?

You do not say where you are flying, Peter. Others have answered on the
assumption that you are flying in the US, I'll give you an answer for
Germany.

The airspace system in Germany is not very different to that in the US, but
there are a couple of differences. Controlled airspace generally starts at
2500 ft agl rather than 1200 ft agl. Flying under IFR in class G is
forbidden in Germany. Thus for an IFR flight, if your destination is not an
IFR airport surrounded by controlled (or class F) airspace, you usually need
to be able to cancel IFR by the minimum instrument altitude which is not
below 2500 ft. This makes IFR flights to VFR airports fairly painful.

To fly under IFR you need a clearance. Pop-up IFR clearances (if you find
IMC on a VFR flight like your second scenario) are troublesome. I've had to
dictate an entire flight plan (including the colour of the dinghy cover) to
a FIS controller to get an IFR pop-up, despite having filed a VFR plan with
almost exactly the same info.

"VFR on top" clearances, as Pete described are not used in Germany (in fact
they're not used outside the US). But you will find that practical IFR
clearances tend to include long direct legs, so it's unusual to be in a
situation where a VFR routing will save you a lot over an IFR one.

So where are you based?

Hope that helps

Julian Scarfe

Hi,

i'm based in Germany with a FAA-PPL ASEL.
It's very interesting to read the differences in IFR-Flying in the
States and in Germany. Although the two countries are "ICAO-countries"
they are not
participating in same air work to each other.
Well, i think ...when learning for an IFR-Rating you should know
before what you are allowed to do with it or not after passing it.
I think most "VFR"-Pilots only know about the new ability to fly in
clouds without reference of the ground surface.
It's very interesting for me to know how the real IFR-flight is
working, what problems with ATC you have when flying under IFR, the
change IFR-VFR, and a lot of other things....and that....before
"doing" the Rating.

Thank you all for asking my questions....

Peter

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...

i'm based in Germany with a FAA-PPL ASEL.
It's very interesting to read the differences in IFR-Flying in the
States and in Germany. Although the two countries are "ICAO-countries"
they are not
participating in same air work to each other.

If you think Germany and the US are different, try crossing the border into
other European countries. Of all of them the airspace system in Germany is
most like the US, and the UK is probably at the opposite extreme. Here we
have mostly class A and class G, with little between. IFR flight in class G
is something we do every day -- there's not a lot of choice.

Good luck if you choose to do the IR.

Julian

Julian,

most like the US, and the UK is probably at the opposite extreme. Here we
have mostly class A and class G, with little between. IFR flight in class
G
is something we do every day -- there's not a lot of choice.

IIRC in the UK you have some sort of "poor-mans-IFR" (no pun intended ;-)
called the "IMC" rating, giving you the right to fly under IMC without being
"in-the-system".

Does that thing make it to JAR-FCL?

Best Regards

Kai Glaesner

"Kai Glaesner" wrote in message
...

IIRC in the UK you have some sort of "poor-mans-IFR" (no pun intended ;-)
called the "IMC" rating, giving you the right to fly under IMC without
being
"in-the-system".

Does that thing make it to JAR-FCL?

Still available as a national rating valid for IFR only in the UK. The only
difference from the way it used to be is that it no longer gives credit
towards an IR. However, an FAA IR gives credit towards a JAA IR, and the
instrument time for an IMC rating counts for the time required for an FAA
IR. So we have the screwy situation that the usual "upgrade" path is IMC
rating - FAA IR - JAA IR.

Julian Scarfe