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Busted ADIZ - What Now?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 23rd 04, 02:04 PM
Richard Russell
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

snipped a story that could happen to any of us.....

All I can say is that it is darn refreshing to hear someone take
responsibility for their mistakes instead of blaming everyone within
50 miles of them. Congratulations for being a man and I hope it works
out for you with a minimum penalty.

Rich Russell
  #2  
Old August 23rd 04, 02:41 PM
Mike Rapoport
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If I were you, I would see if sending your certificate in today would start
the clock running on the 30 days. If you are truly not flying very much
then 30 days is no big deal.

Mike
MU-2


"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott



  #3  
Old August 23rd 04, 04:15 PM
zatatime
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for responding



Glad to hear you're "making progress," and better yet that you found
out you still want to fly!

Good luck with the final outcome.

z
  #4  
Old August 24th 04, 06:13 AM
Jay Beckman
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"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut up
and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.


SNIP


What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott


Scott,

Good luck and I hope your honesty gets rewarded.

Nice to see someone who can step up, fess up and move on.

Please let us know how things progress.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
43.8 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!


  #5  
Old August 19th 04, 11:13 PM
zatatime
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On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:41:37 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.



I'm not sure what to tell you as far as proceeding with the legal
aspect of this, but I'd at least call AOPA.

It seems as though you've identified where your problem is...a
deficiency in pilotage/navigation. Whether you lose your ticket for
30/90 days or not, I wouldn't quit; I'd get with an instructor for a
few lessons, turn the VORs and GPS off and get confident in your
skills with a map and compass. Your whole issue started when you
didn't identify Potomac river correctly. With better VFR navigation
skills this might not have happened. Having an IFR ticket won't help
build these skills.

As far as being a sucky 20 hr/yr pilot, if you keep learning and keep
working on your skills eventually you'll be a good 20 hr/yr pilot. I
know many people who don't get into the 50 or 100 hr per year flight
time, but because they make the most out of their flights they are
very safe and competent people.

If it makes you feel any better at lunch today my friend and I told
each other stories of mistakes we made as students, and looked at how
valuable each lesson was where a mistake happened. Nobody's perfect
as much as we'd like to be.

HTH
z

P.S. Maybe if you offer the FAA the option of excepting 10 or so hour
remedial training program they'd back off a bit. They might want a
609 ride after the training is done, but it's worth a shot and you can
keep flying.
  #6  
Old August 19th 04, 11:21 PM
Peter Gottlieb
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"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
What would you do?



As everyone else has said, stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department. They will give you a direction. If you are not on
their legal plan, it may be better for you to get your own lawyer; again,
they will tell you and point you in the right direction.

They NEED to know about these things, even if you don't use them for any
legal help.

You spent a lot of time and effort getting your pilot's certificate. Don't
let these stupid rules end it. Get some REAL legal assistance and follow
it. Whatever happens, make the best of it and move on. You will be flying
again soon.

..


  #7  
Old August 19th 04, 11:56 PM
Brien K. Meehan
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Scott Lowrey wrote:
Should I seek legal counsel from AOPA?


Yes!

Doesn't seem worth the time to me.


How much time will it take? How much time are you willing to spend?

What would you do?


Get legal help, request an informal appeal, and counter-offer a penalty
of remedial training.

  #8  
Old August 20th 04, 02:40 AM
Troy Towner
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If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip is
a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail free
card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!

GOOD Luck!

Troy



"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott



  #9  
Old August 20th 04, 03:04 AM
Mike Ferrer
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"Troy Towner" wrote in message
m...
If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip

is
a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail

free
card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!


You have to file the report within 10 days of the incident.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm


  #10  
Old August 20th 04, 06:05 AM
tony roberts
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Hi Scott

Being from Canada I can't answer your question.
As you are no doubt aware, you will get all kinds of answers when you
post in a group such as this.
Several people here have given you the same advice -
"stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department"
These are all people who have earned the respect of this group.
I can only say trust their advice - and goode luck.

Let us know how you fare

Best regards

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE
 




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