TSA - another indignity for permanent residents

How long do you think before all pilots wind up on some
"watch list". Maybe we already are....


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Did you notice that in the local news coverage of the Oregon attorney who
was incorrectly tabbed as a terrorist in the Spanish train bombing, it was
stated that he had taken flight lessons? Oh, the horror!!!

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred
to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons
towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the occasional
FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits..... ; - )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended
to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation
and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the
prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will
be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

One Nation Under Surveillance, Loosing All Our Liberty's and No Real Justice
For Anyone Unless Your A Politician!


"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:lvm4d.234760$Fg5.18644@attbi_s53...
How long do you think before all pilots wind up on some
"watch list". Maybe we already are....


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Did you notice that in the local news coverage of the Oregon attorney
who
was incorrectly tabbed as a terrorist in the Spanish train bombing, it
was
stated that he had taken flight lessons? Oh, the horror!!!

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're
doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the
TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would
need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and
they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review
and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred
to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a
school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons
towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the
occasional
FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists
that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the
TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits.....
- )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:


http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being
extended
to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were
all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation
and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the
prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother
already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130
is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already
undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will
be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the
sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the
rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who
want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my
FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools"
and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.

Ugh.

I want to know when these kinds of regulations are going to start being
implemented for the boat training industry. And the truck driving industry.
And the driver education industry. How about the railroad training
industry?

IMHO, part of the problem is that's *only* been aviation that's been singled
out, and we're just not big enough to make a difference. No one else cares
about us, and we're not a large enough constituency for any politician to
take us seriously.

Seems like our best bet would be to simply start lobbying Congress and the
TSA to close up the "security holes" that exist in all the *other*
transportation industries. Once they start suffering under the same rules,
then we'll have some seriously significant allies for the fight.

Someone remind me...how long did it take the country to get through
McCarthyism?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
Someone remind me...how long did it take the country to get through
McCarthyism?



It IS a rather bizarre society.

Guns are encouraged. I guess they are never misused....
Aviation is tightly controlled, more tightly every passing week. I guess
aviation must be bad.


--
*** A great civilization is not conquered from without until it
has destroyed itself from within. ***
- Ariel Durant 1898-1981

"David Brooks" wrote in message ...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

What does "Flight School" mean? Just 141 schools? Does this only apply
to Student Visa applicants? Are they going to ask each of us as CFIs
to inquire about out student's residency status, even if its some guy
working on his private in his friends C-150?

-Robert

In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.

What does "Flight School" mean? Just 141 schools? Does this only apply
to Student Visa applicants? Are they going to ask each of us as CFIs
to inquire about out student's residency status, even if its some guy
working on his private in his friends C-150?

I'm trying to find some time to read the full text of the regulations
above. But from a quick scan, and from some of the comments on there, it
appears that yes, you as a private CFI will have to start checking
people's papers and not accept students unless they either have proof of
citizenship or this TSA certificate.

Another thing that's in that full text is a reckoning of the costs,
including $1,000,000 to build the office space for this bureacracy.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Software planning seems to be based on denying plausibility.
-- Graham Reed

And just to top it all off ... AOPA doesn't care.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite...040923tsa.html

Not even a mention of Permanent Residents. Not even a mention that permanent
residents already went through background checks, finger printing, they are
already on file with the Departement of Homeland Security (no less) ...
nothing.

I am an AOPA member but as far as they are concerned I do not exist.

I might even understand where the TSA is coming from and I might even
appreciate that they are trying to defend this country, since after all, I
live here too and my wife works in Manhattan and I really don't want to go
through another day like 9/11.

But at least, I expected the AOPA to stand up for us and try to make the
point!!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com

I agree completely. I'm going to call AOPA tomorrow and find
out why permanent residents are not part of their lobbying effort.



"Marco Rispoli" wrote in message
t...
And just to top it all off ... AOPA doesn't care.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite...040923tsa.html

Not even a mention of Permanent Residents. Not even a mention that
permanent
residents already went through background checks, finger printing, they
are
already on file with the Departement of Homeland Security (no less) ...
nothing.

I am an AOPA member but as far as they are concerned I do not exist.

I might even understand where the TSA is coming from and I might even
appreciate that they are trying to defend this country, since after all, I
live here too and my wife works in Manhattan and I really don't want to go
through another day like 9/11.

But at least, I expected the AOPA to stand up for us and try to make the
point!!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com

"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:FUJ4d.37784$wV.7672@attbi_s54...
I agree completely. I'm going to call AOPA tomorrow and find
out why permanent residents are not part of their lobbying effort.



I will be sending an email to Phil Boyer tonight.

Not sure what good it will do ... but it's worth a try.

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com

I just sent an email to Phil Boyer. I'll let you know what his response is.



"Marco Rispoli" wrote in message
t...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:FUJ4d.37784$wV.7672@attbi_s54...
I agree completely. I'm going to call AOPA tomorrow and find
out why permanent residents are not part of their lobbying effort.



I will be sending an email to Phil Boyer tonight.

Not sure what good it will do ... but it's worth a try.

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community - http://www.thepilotlounge.com