Student night solo?

One of the first things I did after getting my private ticket was
schedule a couple of flights with my CFI at night to get that level of
comfort I wanted before I attempted it all on my own or with passengers.

Sort of made pale by the stuff I did training for my instrument ticket,
partial panel, at night with simulated electrical failure.. that's about
as bad as it gets, the fact that I didn't just throw up my arms in
despair was a testament to the training I had recieved prior.

Robert

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?


The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
magnitude longer than it does now.

Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.

I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Pete

One of the first things I did after getting my private ticket was
schedule a couple of flights with my CFI at night to get that level of
comfort I wanted before I attempted it all on my own or with passengers.

Sort of made pale by the stuff I did training for my instrument ticket,
partial panel, at night with simulated electrical failure.. that's about
as bad as it gets, the fact that I didn't just throw up my arms in
despair was a testament to the training I had recieved prior.

Robert

Peter Duniho wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?


The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
magnitude longer than it does now.

Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.

I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Pete

Commented below look down!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Duniho"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Student night solo?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
evaluating the student.


Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training.

Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min for
some! As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern. If they are
renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
approved by the FBO or Club.

The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders
of
magnitude longer than it does now.

I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.


Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding
his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them.

Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.

But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he
be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the
checkride.

I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights as
long as I demonstrated profiecenty.


I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training
(you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours),
but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly.

So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would sign
him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night? that is
just plain silly and rather reckless. The point of it all is building
proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it in
required 3 hours but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
safe & proficient then so be it.

It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night flying
and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the flight
training.


Pete

On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:

Commented below look down!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Duniho"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Student night solo?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
evaluating the student.

I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
instruction time.

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
evaluating the student.

No. The examiner is not a "passenger" by FAA definitions. The FAA decided
this so as to prevent any confusion about whether a student pilot may carry
passengers or not. But even if the examiner were a passenger, so what? The
student is not allowed to carry passengers prior to the checkride.

Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min for
some!

Well, then you're either not thinking very hard, or you're a relatively
low-time pilot (or a high-time pilot with the same hours thousands of
times). Flying airplanes can involve a wide variety of things that are
never touched on during primary training.

As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern.

FAR 61.89 "(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an
aircraft6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute
miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night". Okay, so you
managed to stay out of some clouds as a student...so what? You didn't
*really* fly minimum "special VFR" weather as a student.

If they are
renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
approved by the FBO or Club.

Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.

However, things like:

-- landing on a beach
-- flying through a mountain pass
-- landing at LAX
-- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer
-- maximum gross operations
-- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds
Special VFR

just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.

I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.

So what? The fact that training already takes longer than the minimum is
not an argument for adding even MORE things to the training.

Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.

Again, there is a wide variety of things that are simply not covered during
primary training, nor are they part of the Private Pilot Practical Test
Standards. How in the world is a pilot supposed to fly "at a skill level
that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride" if those things are not even
in the PTS?

I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights as
long as I demonstrated profiecenty.

Goodie for you. So what?

but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly.

So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would
sign
him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night?

I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea.

that is just plain silly and rather reckless.

Of course it is. So what?

The point of it all is building
proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it in
required 3 hours

So what? I never said "the point of it all" is "racing the clock".

but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
safe & proficient then so be it.

Yes, so be it. It takes as much time to train a pilot to certain standards
as it takes the pilot to be trained to those standards. That's not exactly
a news flash, and I never disagreed with that philosophy.

However, even in 10 hours, you are not going to train a pilot to complete
proficiency in night flying. And even if you could, that does not
necessarily mean that there's generally going to be a good reason for an
instructor to take the risk of endorsing the student for solo night flight
(though, obviously in some cases, there will be a good reason to do so).

Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night
flying
and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the
flight
training.

I never said you could.

It appears to me that you are simply making up stuff to disagree with. None
of the stuff you are disagreeing with are in any way representative of
statements I've made.

Pete

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
magnitude longer than it does now.

Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.

I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Pete

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
Dave S wrote
My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?

I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
from San Francisco to New York either but their private priv will
allow it. I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
areas as they grown in their private. Most don't do any night flying
for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
be mostly lost anyway.

-Robert, CFI

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
(Michael) wrote in message
. com...
Dave S wrote
My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?

I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
from San Francisco to New York either but their private priv will
allow it. I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
areas as they grown in their private. Most don't do any night flying
for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
be mostly lost anyway.

-Robert, CFI

Robert, what is the speed and range of the airplane your training in? I
would love to have enough range to make it from San Francisco to New York in
1 day during daylight hours only!

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
Robert, what is the speed and range of the airplane your training in? I
would love to have enough range to make it from San Francisco to New York
in
1 day during daylight hours only!

He never said anything about making it from SF to NY "in 1 day during
daylight hours only". Why in the world do you think he did?

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
from San Francisco to New York either

Why not? I think a long solo XC is a great idea. Most students don't
do one that long but I see no reason to say no.

I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
areas as they grown in their private.

Sure - but basic night flying isn't one of them. In other countries
it's a separte rating, and that's fine - but in the US it's something
we expect at the private level.

There is also the reality that the vast majority of students WON'T
come back for additional training.

Most don't do any night flying
for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
be mostly lost anyway.

Have you ever considered the possibility that this is because they
don't feel comfortable with their night flying skills?

Now my experience is certainly different from yours - I only know ONE
private pilot who didn't fly at night in the first year (usually the
first month) after getting the rating.

I once had an instrument student who, before he came to me, had NEVER
flown solo at night. He had the minimum three hours for his private,
then never again. What's more, he wasn't competent to fly at night.

Flying at night scared him. I told him that given our schedules we
would need to do much of our training at night, so we did a couple of
hours of night dual. That was all it took. The next week, he was
flying night solo. But the first hour was certainly... interesting.

And this is why I have a real problem with this blanket acceptance of
no night solo. There is no effective way to test night flying
competence during the daytime, so it is not tested on the checkride
(unlike all the other skills that have been mentioned in the thread).
As the CFI who gave the night training, you are it. If you don't feel
comfortable having the student fly at night, and your judgment is
sound, then he probably should not be flying at night. If he flies at
night before the checkride, you have some control and as a minimum he
risks only his own neck. After the checkride your liability is
reduced (not eliminated) but making the decision based on liability
rather than actual safety is a practice I can't really get behind -
and your student's first night flight without you is probably going to
be with a passenger.

Michael