Female pilot accident rates

"John Mazor" wrote in message ...

And what you refuse to admit is that the "proof" you offered for PC/quotas
in the cockpit doesn't prove anything, for all the reasons noted here.

I never claimed to admit any '"proof"' of anything; your word not mine.
I only stated an observation (possibly accurate). But when people
start trying to put words in my mouth, I don't see much point in debating.

Feel
free to make any case you want against PC, but it has to withstand the
rigors of close examination.

If you aren't aware by now that quotas exist (based on race & gender),
then what could I say?

For example, like you, I could make a
number-based case of gender discrimination simply by noting the small
percentage of pilots who are women - the MCPs are blocking the cockpit door!

No, you could only make a reasonable case by showing that it is common
practice for qualified women being turned down for pilot positions.
If you will re-read what I've written, mine was only an observation.
I do not intentionally fish out, or seek news stories where women have
been involved in crashes. It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

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"NoPoliticsHere" wrote in message
om...
"John Mazor" wrote in message
...

And what you refuse to admit is that the "proof" you offered for
PC/quotas
in the cockpit doesn't prove anything, for all the reasons noted here.

I never claimed to admit any '"proof"' of anything; your word not mine.
I only stated an observation (possibly accurate). But when people
start trying to put words in my mouth, I don't see much point in debating.

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

Feel free to make any case you want against PC, but it has to withstand
the
rigors of close examination.

If you aren't aware by now that quotas exist (based on race & gender),
then what could I say?

I'm not aware of any "quotas". While having wome and minority pilots might
be deemed advantageous in terms of corporate image, and managements may have
taken pains to ensure that no discrimination exists at the hiring level,
that's hardly setting a quota. Are you saying that airlines have told their
people they must hire X number or X percentage of women and minority pilots?
Really? Which airlines? (I will admit that my knowledge is limited to U.S.
airlines.)

For example, like you, I could make a
number-based case of gender discrimination simply by noting the small
percentage of pilots who are women - the MCPs are blocking the cockpit
door!

No, you could only make a reasonable case by showing that it is common
practice for qualified women being turned down for pilot positions.

Thank you for agreeing with my point.

If you will re-read what I've written, mine was only an observation.
I do not intentionally fish out, or seek news stories where women have
been involved in crashes. It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect
dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

I have railed against PC for decades. It exists. But your example doesn't
stand up, for all the reasons previously discussed.

You praised Jose for carefully parsing the logic for not using your real
name on the Web, so you do understand the process, but unless you are
willing right now to admit that your "observation" is worthless, you are
unwilling to parse the logic that has been presented to you in this thread.

Find something else to illustrate PC. And take it elsewhere.

"John Mazor" wrote in message ...

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots?

From

http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/faq7.htm

(The author on the Web page, a 747-400 captain, after first making the
required "cover my butt" statements so the PC police wouldn't come
after him, revealed some of the sobering facts):

-----begin paste-----

But that is the problem. I am aware of some cases where less than
competent female and/or minority pilots have been hired. In other
words, the standards were lowered to meet the numbers requirements
imposed by consent decrees with the EEOC.

In one case, a minority female was given almost 3 times the simulator
hours to pass her DC-10 S/O checkride, but couldn't do it (just about
the easiest position in any airline cockpit). Yet the airline was
terrified at the thought of firing her. Her boyfriend was an employee
of EEOC. She was still in her first (probation) year so union
protection wasn't a factor.

So what did the airline do? They mounted an intensive investigation
into her background (a tactic that could have gotten the airline into
big trouble if they had done it before they hired her), and discovered
she had been fired from 3 other airlines, but failed to reveal that on
her employment application. That was the ammunition needed to justify
her dismissal.

There are other stories, including the letter to AirlineSafety.Com, by
ATC controller John Dill and other letters published in AWST, by
controllers who believe diversity goals have harmed the competency
level of controllers.

I see the EEOC decrees to be the biggest threat against pilot
competency today, not because there aren't competent minority/female
pilots out there to be hired, but because quotas are imposed and
airlines sometimes have to lower their normal standards to achieve
those mandated numbers. If they don't, the EEOC sues them, costing
them many millions of dollars and it will result in the imposition of
even harsher mandates in the future to "remedy their past
discrimination."

----end paste---

And here's more on the subject. Please read it well as I want your
comments.

-------begin paste----------

If the airline has good simulators and good training programs, then
the biggest threat to competency is not in how much time various
pilots get during transition courses, but in how competent they were
when the airline first hired them. Very selective hiring (including
detailed background investigation) is the most effective tool to
heading off pilot competency problems in the future, yet that is the
tool that is called into question the most in "discrimination"
allegations against the airlines. And, the libel law has its effect
too. Previous airlines are afraid to disclose any negative information
about a discharged pilot, because lawyers make hay out of it and sue
the hell out of the employer that dares give a negative reference.

Some years ago, a female pilot alleged a constant pattern of sexual
harassment in the cockpit, naming numerous male pilots as defendants
in a Title Seven Civil Rights lawsuit. Her attorney was a rather
famous female rights specialist who makes extensive use of the media
to win her cases. The female pilot was exposed in the deposition
process when many contradictions were revealed. She finally confessed;
she made the whole thing up. She was a "weak sister" pilot, who had
competency problems and was afraid the airline might try to fire her.
Someone advised her that they wouldn't dare fire her if she made a
sexual harassment/civil rights claim.

Of course, once the truth was disclosed, she was fired. I have been
told she now works as a pilot for another major airline. Want to bet
on, whether or not the previous airline gave her a negative reference?

----end paste----

Well, so much for your PC claims....

-------------------

"John Mazor" wrote in message ...

So do you stand by, or now reject, your hypothesis that your observations
about accidents support a conclusion that because of PC, there are
proportionately more incompetent women pilots than men pilots.

Yes, I do stand behind it. The evidence is quite compelling in support
of the idea that there would be a higher percentage of incompetent
female/minority pilots, considering the political factors involved,
which I have illustrated to you through real-life, real-world cases;
which include the words of a veteran airline pilot who has spine enough
to speak frankly on the subject.

I cannot PROVE anything because I am not privy to any good, serious
statistics on this, if they even exist. But I noticed in the writings
of the 747 captain that airline pilots apparently even have a term
for these incompetent female pilots who've been hired by the
airline: "weak sister" pilots. So tell me, just what did he mean
by that?

-------------------------

NoPoliticsHere wrote:
It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the
cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the
gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect
dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

-------------------

I am not a fan of quota systems of any kind- I think they ultimately do
a disservice to those they purport to help.

What you have done here is begun with a supposition (women are hired on
the basis of political correctness and not competence) and then worked
backwards in order support that supposition. That is the worst sort of
analysis possible. Furthermore, you attempted to present this faulty
argument in a forum that deals with a subject you admittedly know
nothing about. If you wish to be taken seriously- here or in life- you
must think things through objectively. You have, it would appear,
failed to do so.

" wrote in message roups.com...
NoPoliticsHere wrote:
It was just my OBSERVATION that in numerous
newsworthy crashes in the recent past, a woman has been in the
cockpit.
When I also combine my observation with the FACT of the
gender/race-based
quota system in this country, can't you see how easy it is to connect
dots?
Probably not I'm sure.

-------------------

I am not a fan of quota systems of any kind- I think they ultimately do
a disservice to those they purport to help.

Agreed.

What you have done here is begun with a supposition (women are hired on
the basis of political correctness and not competence) and then worked
backwards in order support that supposition.

No, what I have done is claim that ***SOME*** women and minorities are hired
when their gender and/or race takes on more importance than their competence.
It is hard to believe that you *still* miss my point.

That is the worst sort of
analysis possible. Furthermore, you attempted to present this faulty
argument in a forum that deals with a subject you admittedly know
nothing about. If you wish to be taken seriously- here or in life- you
must think things through objectively. You have, it would appear,
failed to do so.

And perhaps you could improve your reading comprehension.

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