Co-pilot error caused AA 587 crash

Newps opined

Scott M. Kozel wrote:


That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.


SUV's go a lot farther back than that. The Chevy Apache was the
precursor to the Suburban and may have been made in the 50's. The 60's
for sure. I owned a 77 IH Scout when I was in college and IH had been
making them for a while.

Don't forget Dodge Power Wagons and Jeeps. Both go back a long way.

Actually you won't go far wrong if you think of SUVs as replacements for the
full sized station wagon of the 70s. The ones that CAFE made illegal.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote:

"Corky Scott" wrote:

The light truck loophole was created originally to give hard working
farmers a break.

SUV's were originally designed as light closed vehicles for small buisnesses
such as florists, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc that were dressed
up/decked out & marketed to families needing a vehicle larger than a sedan.

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

Over here, the range Rover was introduced in 1970. The current model is still
recognisably its successor due to its distinctive styling.

Smaller than a Blazer of course.


Graham

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?


Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:
Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?

SUVs are sons of the minivans. The car manufacturers realised that minivans
had a certain image that prevented market penetration in the younger crowds.
So they rebadged the minivan into "SUV", making it look sportier and marketing
it as something cool that lets you do cool things.

There is little need for "SUV", it is all artifically induced demand though marketing.

You may recall the initial SUVs marketing themselves as accessive off road
vehicles that didn't need a ladder to climb into. This effectively made those
vehicles unusable off road and relinquished them as urban status symbols.

The biggest irony I have seen is the owner of a Subaru Outback being told his
car couldn't make it through an australian outback road because it wasn't a
car capable of traveling outback roads due to it lacking clearance under the
car. Yet, in the USA, that car was marketed exactly as that, making it look
like buyers of that car would automatically become as cool as crocodile dundee
and able to ride across australia's true outback roads.

4wd isn't all that is needed to make a TRUE off road vehicle. You want oil
based air filters, snorkel for carbutaror intake, high clearance, special
gearing, ability to block differential on all wheels etc.

Most of the "SUV" urban vehicles lack those features.

Toyota and Landrover make the real "outback" vehicles. I think Jeep makes
rugged vehicles too but they aren't exported much.

Hummer is a very good example of urban vehicles. They are used by the military
in offroad situations, but prior to their being marketed as a status symbol
for urban environments, they had not made any inroads in the "offroad"
civilian applications.

Pooh Bear wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?

Define "sports"? We used to have lots of fun in one of them. And they're a lot
smaller than many of the "SUVs" I see on the parkway around here.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
have
been looking for it.

Don't know when they were first built, but the US Military used Dodge Power
Wagons for a number of purposes, particularly ambulances, toward the end of
WWII. We had several 1943 models used as ambulances & general purpose
vehicles at AFP 3 that were used until the mid 70's. The USAF had a large
inventory of "Dodge Power Wagons" into the early 80's.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:19:36 GMT, "Ralph Nesbitt"
wrote:

Since when did the average "Soccer Mom SUV" become an "Off Road Vehicle"?
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

Since they were first introduced back in the 70's. It's the loophole
that allows them to qualify as "light trucks" instead of normal
vehicals which means they do not have to conform to the exhaust
emissions regulations all normal cars are held to.

Since they *MUST* have four wheel drive in order to keep their light
truck status, commercials continually hype the usefulness of their
off-road capability, despite the fact that many of them are sold in
states where no snow or ice normally falls.

A good percentage of SUV's do not have 4WD. You can verify this in many
parts of the country where 2WD is the norm on Explorers, Jeeps,
Trailblazers, and the like. There is no requirement of 4WD to qualify as a
truck.

Since they are literally (perhaps this has changed recently) built on
truck chassis, people who buy them because they think they are safer
than ordinary cars are mistaken. They, at least until recently, did
not have the crash engineering designed into them that ordinary cars
had. Also, SUV's, because of their higher than normal weight and
higher than normal height, end up being more prone to loss of control
in marginal traction conditions than ordinary automobiles. Or at
least, that is what some experts have attempted to point out for
years.

As usual, inaccurate. Yes, SOME SUV's have a higher than car center of
gravity, but certainly lot all, or even a majority of them.

Oh yes, almost forgot, SUV's due to their "light truck" status, do not
have to conform to the fuel economy regulations regular cars must
adhere to either. As a result they are collectively known as gas
gusslers and are targeted by green activists for "tickets" against the
environment and some occasional vandalism.

Trucks have different CAFE standards ("Corporate Averge Fuel Economy").
Some are gas guzzlers, and some are more economical. There are many SUV's
out there that have gas mileage equal to many cars (in the 20MPG range, for
overall average driving).

Some people have a need for a bigger vehicle for whatever reason. That is
there prerogative.

The light truck loophole was created originally to give hard working
farmers a break.

Corky Scott

"Corky Scott" wrote in message


Since they *MUST* have four wheel drive in order to keep their light
truck status,

No, they do not have to have 4WD. You can get Suburbans, Tahoes,
Expeditions, Excursions, Durangoes etc, in 2WD.