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"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Matt,

How do you steal something neither owned, nor possessed?


You're claiming the land now called the US was not "owned or
possessed"?

How do namadc tribes "own" land that they inhabit for a few week or months
at a time? How do they "own" land that they took from prior "owners"? How
do they "own" huge tracts of land on which they occupy a few acres and only
for a season at a time?


You claim Native Americans somehow "don't count" because
they didn't have any ownership contracts to show? Jeeze!

Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of land
ownership at all.

Try looking at things from beyond the perspective of Hollywood.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Matt,

How do you steal something neither owned, nor possessed?


You're claiming the land now called the US was not "owned or
possessed"?

How do namadc tribes "own" land that they inhabit for a few week or months
at a time? How do they "own" land that they took from prior "owners"? How
do they "own" huge tracts of land on which they occupy a few acres and
only
for a season at a time?


You claim Native Americans somehow "don't count" because
they didn't have any ownership contracts to show? Jeeze!

Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of land
ownership at all.

Try looking at things from beyond the perspective of Hollywood.

--
Matt

Ah, but my shallow manifest destinarian atheist, the natives were
territorial. They may have moved from place to place like the Floridians
who come here in summer, but always came back to their hunting grounds.
Until white eyes took them.

Using the logical extension of your rather simplistic argument, wouldn't I
be justified in confiscating a Floridian's land when he comes here in
summer?

Matt Barrow ) wrote:
:
: Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: land ownership at all.
:

Some had the concept of owning people...

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/slave_rv.htm
CHEROKEE SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842

"CHEROKEE SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842

by Art T. Burton
Copyright 1996. Art T. Burton

Black slavery in America usually evokes images of the antebellum
South, but few realize that members of the Five Civilized Tribes--the
Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks, and Seminoles--in Indian
Territory, today's Oklahoma, also had slaves. Like their counterparts
in the South, Indian slaveholders feared slave revolts. Those fears
came true in 1842 when slaves in the Cherokee Nation made a daring
dash for freedom.

In the 1830s and 1840s, initially at the insistence of President
Andrew Jackson, the United States government forcibly removed the Five
Civilized Tribes from their homes in Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee,
North Carolina, Georgia, and Florida to Indian Territory west of the
Mississippi River. Their removal opened the lands to white settlers
and planters..."


This defines the term "Five Civilized Tribes":

http://www.sff.net/people/Rion.Wilhelm/five_tribes.html
The Five Civilized Tribes

--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

Black slavery in America usually evokes images of the antebellum
South, but few realize that members of the Five Civilized Tribes--the
Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks, and Seminoles--in Indian
Territory, today's Oklahoma, also had slaves.

Fascinating stuff, Jerry. Thanks for sharing it.

Alas, no number of contrarian facts will serve to change people's minds
about how "noble" the Indians were, nor how "cruel" our white ancestors were
to "drive them off their land."

The Robert Redford version of history just plays so much better than
yours...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

how "cruel" our white ancestors were
to "drive them off their land."


Nobody said anything about the nobility of Native Americans. But there
simply can be no debate that they were subjected to systematic genocide
by people who greedily wanted the land they lived on. People whose
descendants now comprise the majority of the people living in the US.
And no matter the details of ownership - it destroyed their life style
and thus their society and subsequently their excistence. To claim that
"the Indians are still well and alive among us" is utterly cynical at
best.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Nobody said anything about the nobility of Native Americans. But there
simply can be no debate that they were subjected to systematic genocide
by people who greedily wanted the land they lived on. People whose
descendants now comprise the majority of the people living in the US.
And no matter the details of ownership - it destroyed their life style

And they truly need to get over it.

Being driven to emigrate to America in 1852 utterly destroyed my family's
agrarian lifestyle. In fact, my entire family spent several generations in
economic and social flux because of being driven from their ancestral lands.

Should I be seeking reparations from Germany?

Your logic is flawed, and cannot survive scrutiny in the real world.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Leslie,

: Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: land ownership at all.
:

Some had the concept of owning people...


Any excuse for a clear conscience, huh?

"Oh, if THEY did it, it's ok if we do it, too" What kind of morals are
that?

"He's dead now" (quote courtesy of the US Marines Corps)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert ) wrote:
: Leslie,
:
: : Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: : land ownership at all.
: :
:
: Some had the concept of owning people...
:
:
: Any excuse for a clear conscience, huh?
:

What's your excuse for your accusatory tone, low morals ? ;-)

I don't condone slavery in any way, shape or form, unlike some members
of Congress, e.g. Tom DeLay, who wanted to keep abusive sweatshops open
in Saipan, where pregnant workers were fired if they didn't get abortions:

http://www.globalexchange.org/econom...abc040100.html
Pregnant garment workers on Saipan are forced to have abortions...

or U.S. corporations that prefer dictatorships:

http://www.globalexchange.org/econom...01/survey.html
Globalization Survey Reveals U.S. Corporations Prefer Dictatorships

: "Oh, if THEY did it, it's ok if we do it, too" What kind of morals are
: that?
:

The American Indians held other Indians as slaves long before white people
came here. Those slaves were the surviving losers of a battle.

If you want to know about my morals, I donated $ 25.00 to Malden Mills
when my monthly income was less than $ 1,000/month. in support of Aaron
Feuerstein:

http://sitesearch.washingtonpost.com...2001Dec19.html
A CEO Who Lives by What's Right (washingtonpost.com)

Mr. Feuerstein was kind enough to send a personal "thank you" note:

http://clio.rice.edu/leslie/feuerstein.jpg
http://clio.rice.edu/leslie/feuerstein.txt


--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

"leslie" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow ) wrote:
:
: Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: land ownership at all.
:

Some had the concept of owning people...

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/slave_rv.htm
CHEROKEE SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842

The poorly written piece at this link without footnotes or source citations
tells more than you read. It tells that the slavery was learned by
half-Indian offspring of white *christian* slaveholders, who obviously took
their justifications for slavery from the Old and New Testaments of the Holy
Bible. The Bible is clear that slavery is approved. The slave is
admonished in both testaments to behave himself and be docile or be lashed
or killed.

So what is the purpose of this post, to demonize all Indians, including
Sioux and Pawnee, 200 years after the fact of stealing their lands? Some
of the white settlers attempted to enslave Indians but found it was about as
easy as herding cats.

So what is the purpose of this post, to demonize all Indians, including
Sioux and Pawnee, 200 years after the fact of stealing their lands?

No one is trying to demonize Indians. (How typical of the PC police to
interpret a counterpoint as an attack.)

The point (for those who refuse to see it) is that the American Indians lost
the wars, as so many have before (and since), and it's time for them to
either become integrated in American society, or shut the hell up.

Cuz no amount of whining is going to change their fate.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"