Radio 'altercation' with ATC

The CFI must have thought he was on a Usenet newsgroup.

The sensible response would have been, "Roger."

Don

According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary, "Roger" means "I have received
all of your last transmission." It doesn't convey anything about the pilot's
intentions. A more appropriate response would have been "Wilco," which means
"I have received your message, understand it, and will comply." Sadly, too
few pilots use Wilco.

Bob Gardner

"Don Tuite" wrote in message
...
The CFI must have thought he was on a Usenet newsgroup.

The sensible response would have been, "Roger."

Don

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.

My suggestions a (1) ASRA filing -- you don't have to be the
involved pilot(s). This will get someones attention to a problem. (2)
Contact the FSDO and/or ADO. File a complaint about the behaviors of
the controllers. This will also get things corrected.

IMHO there is a reason that some people are NON-FED controllers. They
couldn't hack it within the FAA or USMIL. These people, in my
experience, tend to have an attitude.

Lastly, mic-fright is what kept me from getting my Instrument rating
for so long. And why when flying places, I would actually go well out
of my way to avoid "C" and "B" airspace. Meeting with FAA personnel in
WINGS programs have allowed some of us to get them to understand that
even Instrument pilots get "scared" when calling ground/clearance at
some airfields.

Regards,
Steve.T

On 10 Dec 2004 15:32:48 -0800, wrote in
om::

Lastly, mic-fright is what kept me from getting my Instrument rating
for so long.

May I humbly suggest you purchase a copy of Bob Gardener's book: Say
Again, Please. Here's a link:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...est=9999999997

wrote in message
ps.com...

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.


A proposed flight plan generally times out two hours after the proposed
departure time. Why didn't your ex-controller CFII prompt you to update the
time before that?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
ps.com...

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.


A proposed flight plan generally times out two hours after the proposed
departure time. Why didn't your ex-controller CFII prompt you to update
the
time before that?


Maybe there's a reason he's an EX controller.... :-)

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" wrote in message
nk.net...

Maybe there's a reason he's an EX controller.... :-)


No doubt, and it certainly isn't because being a CFII is more lucrative.

I take it you missed the 30 minute wait for landing a/c? By the time we
could contact the "local" class "C" approach we are to talk to, it had
expired by 5 minutes.

I had flown at that airport many times before (it was where I took my
PP check ride). Even on a busy day I'd never been sitting, "ready to
depart", for more than 10 minutes.

However, on the day in question, we had gone to the run-up area w/ NO
traffic on freq and no traffic had used the airport for 10 minutes. By
the time we finished run-up and radio settings, there was a tail
dragger on short final, followed by 2 C-150s, then a mix of bi-wing,
C-152, C-172 and a Beech. Remember, landing a/c have right of way, and
they were landing as tight as you legally could.

There is no RCO at that airport. Had we been given a clearance void,
things would have sure been different. But since we could depart VFR
and activate in the air...

The CFII was a former military controller and is now retired. Maybe he
was wanting to teach me how, with a real situation, to file and
activate in the air -- VFR Conditions, not IMC. We had actually
discussed this very situation when we realized that our filing would
expire before all the traffic cleared.

Later,
Steve.T

wrote in message
oups.com...

I take it you missed the 30 minute wait for landing a/c?


Nope.

wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Generally, one is required to comply with ATC instructions. Regardless of
whether you're "in their airspace" or not. That said, it doesn't sound like
the tower controller gave any particular instruction that the pilot here
could have been construed as not complying with.

In any case, clearly the pilot was well within his rights, whether he was
within the Class D airspace or not, to maneuver as necessary to avoid other
traffic. IMHO, it was a bad idea to do 360s (especially multiple 360s)
without keeping the controller in the loop by telling them of the plan. But
I don't see any regulatory violation.

In other words: I don't think the pilot violated any federal rules, but he
did violate some basic common sense rules. Between the pilot and the
controller, I think the controller made more/bigger mistakes than the pilot.

I agree with your thoughts that it's not helpful to get into arguments on
the radio. I've had my share of "interesting" moments with ATC, but it
almost never solves anything to make comments on the radio. I just stick to
the important stuff, like clearances and requests and whatnot. But who
knows? Maybe this particular controller, this is just what he needed to get
him thinking the right way. Probably not, but you never know.

Pete