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drug/alcohol testing policy: effective?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 04, 06:59 PM
Larry Dighera
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote in
t::

The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.


You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical
coordination can be measured:
http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm
  #2  
Old December 16th 04, 03:41 AM
Chip Jones
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote in
t::

The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high,

or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.


You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical
coordination can be measured:
http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm


Let's see, that wouldn't be a TEST, would it? As in, a TEST to detect
physical impairment? :-)

Chip, ZTL




  #3  
Old December 16th 04, 06:33 PM
Frank
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Chip Jones wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote in
t::

The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high,

or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.


You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical
coordination can be measured:
http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm


Let's see, that wouldn't be a TEST, would it? As in, a TEST to detect
physical impairment? :-)

Chip, ZTL



But that test doesn't indicate whether or not the person lacking
coordination was on pot or Benadryl. Or just hadn't slept in three days.

As regards flight safety this would be the kind of test that makes sense.
Testing for pot|booze|crack only serves an agenda that puts social issues
ahead of safety.

--
Frank....H
  #4  
Old December 15th 04, 09:16 PM
gatt
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message news:Ak%vd.213

Random testing in the field of professional aviation is a necessary evil.

I
firmly believe that even if we completely legalize pot someday for the
masses, we will still have to maintain a zero-tolerance random drug

testing
policy or else air safety will suffer.


It's interesting that marijuana keeps coming up in this discussion. It's the
most benign of them all, impairing people less even than alcohol. According
to a drug testing link somebody forwarded, methamphetamine use is coming up
pretty dramatically (44% increase in positive test results in the last
year?!)

I agree, though, that if pot (as an example) were legalized, it still
wouldn't belong in the cockpit. But, test for it? Do they test for the
presence of perfectly legal drugs like Benadryl which, arguably, would pose
a more severe handicap to a pilot?

I'd rather ride with a guy who smoked pot last week or went on a bender
three days ago at a bachelor party than a guy who's about to fall asleep at
the yoke because he took Benadryl two or three hours ago.

-c


  #5  
Old December 15th 04, 11:01 PM
Jim Fisher
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message
k.net...

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news [snipped]


I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too
chicken to admit it.


I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim.

Chip, ZTL


Pretty close, anyway. Tell "your friend" hey from one ex stoner to
another.

I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a
commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties or
would know a joint from a line of coke.

--
Jim Fisher


  #6  
Old December 16th 04, 03:48 AM
Happy Dog
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"Jim Fisher" wrote in message news:

I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a
commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties
or would know a joint from a line of coke.


Exactly what "kind of behaviour" would that be? And, to make it a textbook
strawman, who's defending it and how?

moo



  #7  
Old December 16th 04, 07:42 PM
gatt
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"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news:uj3wd.3254$

I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a
commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties

or
would know a joint from a line of coke.


Interesting point. A woman I know told me that the most cocaine she's ever
seen was being snorted by a group of airline pilots in her stepfather's
kitchen during a New Year's party sometime in the early '80s.

-c


  #8  
Old December 16th 04, 03:23 AM
Happy Dog
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message

This guy I know started smoking cannabis in college. He enjoyed it so
much
and so often that he started losing control of the direction his life was
going in. As you might expect, he soon saw falling school grades, low
energy, no motivation, etc., the classic results of habitual pot use. It
was fun (he says), but it was a dead end. To steer his ship down a
straighter, narrower channel, this guy walked into a recruiting office and
enlisted in the Marine Corps.


And you're sure that it was the dope that was the problem and not a symptom?

Somewhere along the way, this guy realized just how damn bad drugs are for
building a person's character. Like every controller I know, this guy
would
tell you that people who make their living in aviation safety related
fields, say pilots who fly under Part 121 or Part 135, or mechanics, or
air
traffic controllers, should be randomly drug tested *often*.


You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on this?

It's an air
safety thing. You don't want unmotivated, low-energy, maybe
high-as-a-kite
folks playing around with airplanes that will be carrying passengers. The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.


So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If
that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't always
know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots of highly
motivated people who smoke pot.

No matter what the rate of positive on a random test is among
this group of aviation professionals, the air safety goal has to be zero
tol
erance for drug use.


What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with
that? Also, while were at it (and I know something about this) the top
cause of brain fade in high pressure environments is personal strife. So,
maybe we should force all these people to keep a diary and randomly check to
make sure they're not lying.


I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too
chicken to admit it.


I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim.


More like they're not stupid enough to admit it.

moo


  #9  
Old December 16th 04, 04:19 AM
Chip Jones
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"Happy Dog" wrote in message
...
"Chip Jones" wrote in message

This guy I know started smoking cannabis in college. He enjoyed it so
much
and so often that he started losing control of the direction his life

was
going in. As you might expect, he soon saw falling school grades, low
energy, no motivation, etc., the classic results of habitual pot use.

It
was fun (he says), but it was a dead end. To steer his ship down a
straighter, narrower channel, this guy walked into a recruiting office

and
enlisted in the Marine Corps.


And you're sure that it was the dope that was the problem and not a

symptom?

Nope.


Somewhere along the way, this guy realized just how damn bad drugs are

for
building a person's character. Like every controller I know, this guy
would
tell you that people who make their living in aviation safety related
fields, say pilots who fly under Part 121 or Part 135, or mechanics, or
air
traffic controllers, should be randomly drug tested *often*.


You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on

this?

I know, quite literally, over five hundred controllers. I have also served
as a union drug testing rep for NATCA. I am saying that this opinion is the
overwhelming consensus on this in 100% of the controllers whose hands I held
while they were peeing in a bottle. How about you, Spiccoli?


It's an air
safety thing. You don't want unmotivated, low-energy, maybe
high-as-a-kite
folks playing around with airplanes that will be carrying passengers.

The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high,

or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.


So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If
that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't

always
know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots of

highly
motivated people who smoke pot.


Ok brother, lay it on us. How *can* you test for on the job or in the
cockpit drug impairment without a freaking drug test??? You can't always
know lots of things about people, but you damn well should know if your
neighborhood air traffic controller or ATP is toking on the occasional
number on the way to the airport or doing meth to get through the midnight
shifts. And I have no doubt that there are lots of highly motivated people
who smoke pot. They are motivated to eat, if nothing else. But habitual
drug users aren't motivated to give a rats ass about much more than getting
high.


No matter what the rate of positive on a random test is among
this group of aviation professionals, the air safety goal has to be zero
tol
erance for drug use.


What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with
that?


I am opposed to all forms of smoking, drinking alcohol, and boxing while
engaged in an air safety endeavour like commercial flying or air traffic
control. Zero tolerance in the cockpit, in the hanger or in the radar room
or tower cab. It is easy to tell when a person is smoking on the job, since
smoke emmanates from either his mouth or his nose. Drinking is also easily
detected while a person is under the influence of alcohol. Cops have been
testing for DUI for years, and BAT is very accurate. Boxing is also easily
detected, because you can either see punches raining on a body or else you
can feel it (at least once, if it was a sucker punch...). Drug use isn't as
easily detected.

I personally don't give a rat's ass one way or the other about smoking,
drinking or boxing away from the cockpit, hanger, radar room or tower cab.
Last time I checked, tobbacco, alcohol and massachism were all legal.

Also, while were at it (and I know something about this) the top
cause of brain fade in high pressure environments is personal strife.


I can see for myself that you do know a lot about brain fade. Sorry to hear
your life is so stressful. Good thing you aren't an aviation professional!

So,
maybe we should force all these people to keep a diary and randomly check

to
make sure they're not lying.


I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too
chicken to admit it.


I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim.


More like they're not stupid enough to admit it.

moo


I vote for chicken ****. Kinda like a guy who doesn't have the stones to
put his real name on a post.

Chip, ZTL



  #10  
Old December 16th 04, 04:34 AM
Happy Dog
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Chip Jones" wrote in message
You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on

this?

I know, quite literally, over five hundred controllers. I have also
served
as a union drug testing rep for NATCA. I am saying that this opinion is
the
overwhelming consensus on this in 100% of the controllers whose hands I
held
while they were peeing in a bottle. How about you, Spiccoli?


And you know they weren't lying? It would be foolish to raise a flag by
stating otherwise, no?

So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If
that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't

always know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots
of
highly motivated people who smoke pot.

Ok brother, lay it on us. How *can* you test for on the job or in the
cockpit drug impairment without a freaking drug test???


The issue above was "critical safety skills". Do try to keep up. Those can
be tested. Drug testing doesn't test for drug impairment, BTW.

But habitual
drug users aren't motivated to give a rats ass about much more than
getting
high.


Who was talking about "habitual drug users"? The issue was impairment.


What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with
that?


I am opposed to all


snip 10 lines of evasion

Who cares what you are personally opposed to? The issue wasn't using drugs
on the job. You sure you're not a bit stoned now? You're having trouble
following this. The issue is government control and testing. So, you OK
with random testing for boxing, smoking and drinking?


I personally don't give a rat's ass one way or the other about smoking,
drinking or boxing away from the cockpit, hanger, radar room or tower cab.


So why the occasional joint? What's so special about that?

I vote for chicken ****. Kinda like a guy who doesn't have the stones to
put his real name on a post.


Ahh, so all posters who use a nickname are chicken ****? Is that what
you're saying? Godlike. You'll note that I don't post from an anonymous
source or hide my email.

moo


 




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