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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote in t:: The problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or coordination. You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical coordination can be measured: http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm |
#2
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![]() "Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones" wrote in t:: The problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or coordination. You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical coordination can be measured: http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm Let's see, that wouldn't be a TEST, would it? As in, a TEST to detect physical impairment? :-) Chip, ZTL |
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Chip Jones wrote:
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones" wrote in t:: The problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or coordination. You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical coordination can be measured: http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm Let's see, that wouldn't be a TEST, would it? As in, a TEST to detect physical impairment? :-) Chip, ZTL But that test doesn't indicate whether or not the person lacking coordination was on pot or Benadryl. Or just hadn't slept in three days. As regards flight safety this would be the kind of test that makes sense. Testing for pot|booze|crack only serves an agenda that puts social issues ahead of safety. -- Frank....H |
#4
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![]() "Chip Jones" wrote in message news:Ak%vd.213 Random testing in the field of professional aviation is a necessary evil. I firmly believe that even if we completely legalize pot someday for the masses, we will still have to maintain a zero-tolerance random drug testing policy or else air safety will suffer. It's interesting that marijuana keeps coming up in this discussion. It's the most benign of them all, impairing people less even than alcohol. According to a drug testing link somebody forwarded, methamphetamine use is coming up pretty dramatically (44% increase in positive test results in the last year?!) I agree, though, that if pot (as an example) were legalized, it still wouldn't belong in the cockpit. But, test for it? Do they test for the presence of perfectly legal drugs like Benadryl which, arguably, would pose a more severe handicap to a pilot? I'd rather ride with a guy who smoked pot last week or went on a bender three days ago at a bachelor party than a guy who's about to fall asleep at the yoke because he took Benadryl two or three hours ago. -c |
#5
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message
k.net... "Jim Fisher" wrote in message news ![]() I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too chicken to admit it. I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim. Chip, ZTL Pretty close, anyway. ![]() another. I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties or would know a joint from a line of coke. -- Jim Fisher |
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"Jim Fisher" wrote in message news:
I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties or would know a joint from a line of coke. Exactly what "kind of behaviour" would that be? And, to make it a textbook strawman, who's defending it and how? moo |
#7
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![]() "Jim Fisher" wrote in message news:uj3wd.3254$ I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties or would know a joint from a line of coke. Interesting point. A woman I know told me that the most cocaine she's ever seen was being snorted by a group of airline pilots in her stepfather's kitchen during a New Year's party sometime in the early '80s. -c |
#8
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message
This guy I know started smoking cannabis in college. He enjoyed it so much and so often that he started losing control of the direction his life was going in. As you might expect, he soon saw falling school grades, low energy, no motivation, etc., the classic results of habitual pot use. It was fun (he says), but it was a dead end. To steer his ship down a straighter, narrower channel, this guy walked into a recruiting office and enlisted in the Marine Corps. And you're sure that it was the dope that was the problem and not a symptom? Somewhere along the way, this guy realized just how damn bad drugs are for building a person's character. Like every controller I know, this guy would tell you that people who make their living in aviation safety related fields, say pilots who fly under Part 121 or Part 135, or mechanics, or air traffic controllers, should be randomly drug tested *often*. You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on this? It's an air safety thing. You don't want unmotivated, low-energy, maybe high-as-a-kite folks playing around with airplanes that will be carrying passengers. The problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or coordination. So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't always know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots of highly motivated people who smoke pot. No matter what the rate of positive on a random test is among this group of aviation professionals, the air safety goal has to be zero tol erance for drug use. What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with that? Also, while were at it (and I know something about this) the top cause of brain fade in high pressure environments is personal strife. So, maybe we should force all these people to keep a diary and randomly check to make sure they're not lying. I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too chicken to admit it. I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim. More like they're not stupid enough to admit it. moo |
#9
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![]() "Happy Dog" wrote in message ... "Chip Jones" wrote in message This guy I know started smoking cannabis in college. He enjoyed it so much and so often that he started losing control of the direction his life was going in. As you might expect, he soon saw falling school grades, low energy, no motivation, etc., the classic results of habitual pot use. It was fun (he says), but it was a dead end. To steer his ship down a straighter, narrower channel, this guy walked into a recruiting office and enlisted in the Marine Corps. And you're sure that it was the dope that was the problem and not a symptom? Nope. Somewhere along the way, this guy realized just how damn bad drugs are for building a person's character. Like every controller I know, this guy would tell you that people who make their living in aviation safety related fields, say pilots who fly under Part 121 or Part 135, or mechanics, or air traffic controllers, should be randomly drug tested *often*. You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on this? I know, quite literally, over five hundred controllers. I have also served as a union drug testing rep for NATCA. I am saying that this opinion is the overwhelming consensus on this in 100% of the controllers whose hands I held while they were peeing in a bottle. How about you, Spiccoli? It's an air safety thing. You don't want unmotivated, low-energy, maybe high-as-a-kite folks playing around with airplanes that will be carrying passengers. The problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high, or when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or coordination. So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't always know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots of highly motivated people who smoke pot. Ok brother, lay it on us. How *can* you test for on the job or in the cockpit drug impairment without a freaking drug test??? You can't always know lots of things about people, but you damn well should know if your neighborhood air traffic controller or ATP is toking on the occasional number on the way to the airport or doing meth to get through the midnight shifts. And I have no doubt that there are lots of highly motivated people who smoke pot. They are motivated to eat, if nothing else. But habitual drug users aren't motivated to give a rats ass about much more than getting high. No matter what the rate of positive on a random test is among this group of aviation professionals, the air safety goal has to be zero tol erance for drug use. What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with that? I am opposed to all forms of smoking, drinking alcohol, and boxing while engaged in an air safety endeavour like commercial flying or air traffic control. Zero tolerance in the cockpit, in the hanger or in the radar room or tower cab. It is easy to tell when a person is smoking on the job, since smoke emmanates from either his mouth or his nose. Drinking is also easily detected while a person is under the influence of alcohol. Cops have been testing for DUI for years, and BAT is very accurate. Boxing is also easily detected, because you can either see punches raining on a body or else you can feel it (at least once, if it was a sucker punch...). Drug use isn't as easily detected. I personally don't give a rat's ass one way or the other about smoking, drinking or boxing away from the cockpit, hanger, radar room or tower cab. Last time I checked, tobbacco, alcohol and massachism were all legal. Also, while were at it (and I know something about this) the top cause of brain fade in high pressure environments is personal strife. I can see for myself that you do know a lot about brain fade. Sorry to hear your life is so stressful. Good thing you aren't an aviation professional! So, maybe we should force all these people to keep a diary and randomly check to make sure they're not lying. I'd bet a dollar a lot of them are reading this right now but are too chicken to admit it. I'll bet you're right on the money, Jim. More like they're not stupid enough to admit it. moo I vote for chicken ****. Kinda like a guy who doesn't have the stones to put his real name on a post. Chip, ZTL |
#10
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"Chip Jones" wrote in message
You know how many controllers? Are you saying there's a consensus on this? I know, quite literally, over five hundred controllers. I have also served as a union drug testing rep for NATCA. I am saying that this opinion is the overwhelming consensus on this in 100% of the controllers whose hands I held while they were peeing in a bottle. How about you, Spiccoli? And you know they weren't lying? It would be foolish to raise a flag by stating otherwise, no? So what? Critical safety skills *are* an issue and *can* be tested. If that's your point, then drug testing isn't the way to go. You can't always know lots of things about people. Nor should you. There are lots of highly motivated people who smoke pot. Ok brother, lay it on us. How *can* you test for on the job or in the cockpit drug impairment without a freaking drug test??? The issue above was "critical safety skills". Do try to keep up. Those can be tested. Drug testing doesn't test for drug impairment, BTW. But habitual drug users aren't motivated to give a rats ass about much more than getting high. Who was talking about "habitual drug users"? The issue was impairment. What about zero tolerance for smoking, drinking and boxing? You OK with that? I am opposed to all snip 10 lines of evasion Who cares what you are personally opposed to? The issue wasn't using drugs on the job. You sure you're not a bit stoned now? You're having trouble following this. The issue is government control and testing. So, you OK with random testing for boxing, smoking and drinking? I personally don't give a rat's ass one way or the other about smoking, drinking or boxing away from the cockpit, hanger, radar room or tower cab. So why the occasional joint? What's so special about that? I vote for chicken ****. Kinda like a guy who doesn't have the stones to put his real name on a post. Ahh, so all posters who use a nickname are chicken ****? Is that what you're saying? Godlike. You'll note that I don't post from an anonymous source or hide my email. moo |
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