drug/alcohol testing policy: effective?

"Happy Dog" wrote in message news:RKmwd.25324$%

The FAA has found that about
0.06 percent of pilots and air traffic controllers have a confirmed
positive
drug test, which works out to a cost of about $45,000 per positive result.
However, the programs are likely to continue because of public worries
about
safety. "

The off-net conversation I had went in this direction as well. The
secondary concern, beyond safety, is perception of safety by passengers.
Ultimately, the next question has been: Is it worth it to General Aviation
to test for drugs simply to ease the fear of the public?

-c

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news
Quitting something that is bad for you because of rules that were imposed
on me was a bad idea?

Yes. A non-idiotic approach to the issue would be to base one's decision
on quitting on real facts, not some economically-motivated rule-making.

You might be surprised that most of us are motivated by money. Works for
me, anyway.

Besides, I didn't know I was an idiot at the time. Thought I was pudy
smart, actually.

I'm not really concerned about pot-heads flying, as long as they aren't
under the influence while flying. What do I care whether they quit or
not?

Never smoked the stuff, have ya? Good for you, man. If you *did* smoke it,
you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and well
after partaking of it. Tell your name to just about any long-term pot
smoker. Even if 's not stoned, he won't remember it next time he meets you.

Do I really have to explain the dangers of short-term memory loss to a
pilot, Bill, er, Roger, er, glancing at header oh yeah, Pete? Not to
mention the fact that a commercial pilot who performs an illegal act on a
habitual basis has no place in the cockpit, man!


--
Jim Fisher

Jim Fisher wrote:

If you *did* smoke it,
you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and well
after partaking of it.

You don't even have to have smoked it yourself to know this. Just know a fair
number of people who do.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

"Jim Fisher"
"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
"Jim Fisher" wrote in message I'm not
really concerned about pot-heads flying, as long as they aren't under the
influence while flying. What do I care whether they quit or not?

Never smoked the stuff, have ya? Good for you, man. If you *did* smoke
it, you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and
well after partaking of it. Tell your name to just about any long-term
pot smoker. Even if 's not stoned, he won't remember it next time he
meets you.

Wrong.

Do I really have to explain the dangers of short-term memory loss to a
pilot, Bill, er, Roger, er, glancing at header oh yeah, Pete? Not to
mention the fact that a commercial pilot who performs an illegal act on a
habitual basis has no place in the cockpit, man!

Adorable. If there was a communist party they could count on your vote.

le m

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
...
[...]
Besides, I didn't know I was an idiot at the time.

I never said you knew, or should have known, it was an idiotic approach.
Just that it was.

Never smoked the stuff, have ya? Good for you, man. If you *did* smoke
it, you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and
well after partaking of it. Tell your name to just about any long-term
pot smoker. Even if 's not stoned, he won't remember it next time he
meets you.

I have met plenty of long-term pot smokers, am even friends with a few, and
none have had any trouble remembering who I am the next time we meet.

But regardless, as you yourself admit, lots of other stuff has the very same
effect. If you are worried about short-term memory loss (which has nothing
to do with someone remembering my name a week later anyway), then test for
THAT. Since according to you it's such a big deal, it should be easy enough
to uncover any performance hindrance, and as an added benefit, you'll get
rid of all the other pilots who are engaging in different but equally
problematic behaviors.

Do I really have to explain the dangers of short-term memory loss to a
pilot, Bill, er, Roger, er, glancing at header oh yeah, Pete? Not to
mention the fact that a commercial pilot who performs an illegal act on a
habitual basis has no place in the cockpit, man!

"A commercial pilot who performs an illegal act?" Give me a break. I can't
name a single person who I know who is innocent of breaking ANY law. As an
obvious example, I'm pretty much the only person I know who actually aims to
drive the actual speed limit (or slower if conditions require), and even I
have been known to accidently exceed now and then.

The real question isn't whether "a commercial pilot who performs an illegal
act" should be allowed in the cockpit or not. Obviously there are some
illegal acts that really aren't that big of a problem.

I'm fine disagreeing with you on WHAT illegal acts are a problem, but don't
go around pretending that this is a black & white matter. I and plenty of
other people are of the opinion that, as illegal acts go, smoking pot is
basically not anything even remotely serious enough to affect a person's
flying career. IMHO it's not even as bad as running a red light or failure
to yield; it's comparable to speeding at best.

Basically, all you can come up with are subjective reasons for drug testing.
That's fine with me; lots of our rules are based on subjective reasoning.
But don't pretend it's anything other than subjective reasoning.

Pete

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news:to2wd.2559

Never smoked the stuff, have ya? Good for you, man. If you *did* smoke
it,
you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and well
after partaking of it. Tell your name to just about any long-term pot
smoker. Even if 's not stoned, he won't remember it next time he meets
you.

I disagree. I know laywers, professors, engineers, programmers and, well,
parents who have smoked pot most of their adult life who don't demonstrate
those characteristics.

One, as I think I mentioned earlier, was UAL/PDX' employee of the year three
or four times in his 23-year career. He got a special award for not missing
a day of work in five years. I know for a fact he's smoked pot daily since
before I was born. Hasn't been in a traffic accident in as long as I can
remember (drove as a courier after UAL closed down his unit and laid the
entire crew off), never been arrested.

Having said that, I am absolutely not condoning mixing drug use of any kind
with flying. I've done my share of, eh, sampling, but I won't even eat
curry before flying because it makes me drowsy, and coffee is a diuretic
which is a distraction so I limit that as well.

I guess what torques me off is, the vast majority of commercial pilots make
squat, and yet every time they take off they put their lives and their
passengers' lives in danger. Every single time. They're not paid in
accordance with the risk of their OWN lives, and yet it takes some well-paid
group of bureaucrats somewhere to legislate safety to people who risk their
lives every damned minute they're working. My thinking, of course, may be
way off.

Not to mention the fact that a commercial pilot who performs an illegal
act on a
habitual basis has no place in the cockpit, man!

LOL! My grandparents broke down in southeast Oregon on a hunting trip and
chartered a pilot to take them to Reno for the car part. In Reno, the
pilot rented a car and drove them to the part place. My grandfather (a
cop) said the guy was as good a pilot as those he rode with in WWII, but
that he ran four stop signs in the short amount of time they were with him.
:

-c

"Peter Duniho" wrote


I'm not really concerned
about pot-heads flying, as long as they aren't under the influence while
flying.

I disagree that even "more-than-occasional drug use" is necessarily a
problem, as long as that drug use doesn't occur when it would interfere
with
a person's obligations.

Pete

I believe you are in one of two circumstances. 1), you are the user that
only uses while you are not flying, or 2), you have never been a user and
are totally clueless.

Using pot, in the vast majority of users, becomes more important than almost
anything. While you claim that use while not flying does no harm, I would
claim that many things are neglected. Some things like sleep, proper diet,
studying and setting up the flight plan, learning more about the art of
flight, and so on.

I do have an opinion which of these two camps you fall into.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
"Peter Duniho" wrote

I'm not really concerned
about pot-heads flying, as long as they aren't under the influence while
flying.

I disagree that even "more-than-occasional drug use" is necessarily a
problem, as long as that drug use doesn't occur when it would interfere
with a person's obligations.

I believe you are in one of two circumstances. 1), you are the user that
only uses while you are not flying, or 2), you have never been a user and
are totally clueless.

Using pot, in the vast majority of users, becomes more important than
almost
anything.

You mispelled "crack". The ancient fallacy above has been out of style
since "Reefer Madness".

While you claim that use while not flying does no harm, I would
claim that many things are neglected. Some things like sleep, proper
diet,
studying and setting up the flight plan, learning more about the art of
flight, and so on.

And your claim is based on what? How about amphetamine use then. It would
enhance the things you think are problematic. So, what's the problem with
them? Is prescribed Methylphenidate (Ritalin) or Dextroamphetamine OK? OTC
wakeup pills? Then why not a line of coke?

I do have an opinion which of these two camps you fall into.

Of course you do. You have a keen eye for these things. Who else but a
moron or a pothead would oppose drug testing?

moo

"Happy Dog" wrote in message
...
[snipped]

Of course you do. You have a keen eye for these things. Who else but a
moron or a pothead would oppose drug testing?


A moronic, pot-smoking troll?

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones"
"Happy Dog" wrote in message

Of course you do. You have a keen eye for these things. Who else but a
moron or a pothead would oppose drug testing?

A moronic, pot-smoking troll?

Sorry to have pushed you beyond the point where you can respond on-topic.
People so easily distracted by their emotions don't make good pilots or much
of anything that requires an ability to set aside emotions and focus.

moo