Class D Sucks

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...

This would be because pilots, like all other people, have this idea
that authority and responsibility go together.


Actually, there are quite a few people that don't understand that.

On 17 Dec 2004 08:29:29 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided.

This would be because pilots, like all other people, have this idea
that authority and responsibility go together. In other words, if the
controller has the authority to tell you how to fly your pattern, when
to turn, etc - then the responsibility for separation in the air should
also be his. Well, it doesn't work that way. THAT is the primary
weakness of Class D airspace, and it can't be fixed unless you either
make the controller responsible for separation (meaning that unless the
pilot disregarded the controller's instructions, it's controller error,
not pilot error, in the event of a mid-air or near miss) or you give
the pilot the authority to disregard the controller's instructions at
will, not just in the event of an emergency (thus making the airspace
uncontrolled). But while this is an issue in theory, in practice it's
usually not an issue.

In reality, at most Class D's most controllers treat separation as if
it were their responsibility. That means they issue clear and
comprehensible instructions and ask for a readback of the key points,
just as if they were issuing clearances. When that happens, pilots
treat the instructions as if they were clearances - meaning they
question those they don't understand, read back those they do, and
comply - and things work OK - a little better than they would if the
airspace was uncontrolled. Sometimes you get a bad or overloaded
controller, and then things are MUCH worse than they would be if the
airspace was uncontrolled. That's when you get the problems.

I will be the first to admit that I will let a situation that looks
ugly develop a lot further in Class D than I will in Class E or G. I
Class E/G, I know there's nobody looking out for me but me, and if I
don't have a plan nobody does. So when I see things not going to plan
(someone too close for comfort) I take action immediately. Not so in
Class D. Unless the controller has given me reason to doubt his
competence (by doing things like issuing nonsensical or illegal
instructions, chewing out pilots on the frequency rather than calmly
giving them a number to call, and generally acting like he lost SA) I'm
going to assume he has a plan, and I'm going to stick with his plan
until there's just no way. I think most pilots would too. I guess
this is what you call inappropriate comfort level. You are of course
entitled to your opinion, but I don't consider it inappropriate given
the way Class D normally operates. Given the legalities, you have a
point.

Michael

Perhaps a poor choice of works, Michael. By inappropriate comfort
level I meant that the pilot may have a false sense of security
because he thinks the controller is responsible for more than he
really is. Too many pilots lose just a little bit of the edge when
they think someone else is watching over their wellbeing. I'm
speaking specifically of VFR pilots, all of whom were taught that ATC
does not provide separation in the air for VFR aircraft in the Delta,
but many have "forgotten".
Rich Russell

Richard Russell wrote:

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand

Exactly. The pilots don't understand. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea
to choose a cheapo ground school and do the written by merely learning
the questions catalogue by heart and hoping for some luck? (I'm
deliberaely exaggerating.)

Stefan

I'll chime in on this with a slight tangent...

My airport - HYX / Saginaw Mi - is an uncontrolled field with a 5,000
foot runway, VOR-A approach, GPS approach, NDB approach, and the brand
spanking new ILS is to be turned on 'any day now'...

This oughta get good once the jets (and mucho others) start shooting
ILS into the field and don't understand that local traffic does N O T
listen to ATC - especially the nordo guys... Plus, students will often
be shooting crosswind circuits and bangs for practice (3 flight
schools on field) - and me too, slow learner...
And worse, on nice days the jumpers talk to ATC up until 2 minutes
before jumping when their s**t head pilot makes a single announcement
on a really busy 122.8... Someday there's gonna be a happening due to
that... Meat bombs at 120 mph straight down from 12,000 feet into a
busy airport pattern... (arghh)
Actually, a jumper hit a hangar in November breaking his leg and
denting the hangar, (it used to be my hangar) but I guess you can't
blame that on the radios...
A Class D would actually be an improvement...

Denny

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fPAwd.586096$D%.508731@attbi_s51...

Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.


So it appears the problem is pilot's understanding of Class D airspace.



This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...


Controlled airspace means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air
traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in
accordance with the airspace classification. Let's call Class D airspace
what it is - controlled airspace.

Jay Honeck wrote:

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

Perhaps you've not a problem with the airspace, but with the term
"controlled". After all, class E airspace is "controlled" too; see the AIM
(section 2 defines "controlled airspace", if memory serves). But (I hope!)
nobody expects VFR separation there.

- Andrew

Jay Honeck wrote:

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

But it *is* controlled. Heck, even Class E is controlled airspace!

In class D, IFR flights are vectored. In class D, the controller has the
right to give instructions even to VFR flights, as in "keep out" or
"leave" or "stay west of that river and below 3000 ft".

If you can't tell "controlled" from "separation provided", then this
isn't a flaw in the concept, but rather in the pilot's knowledge.

Stefan

I doubt you have flown into an environment that was busier than that
segment
of time that Mary and I hit Dubuque.

Jay, don't be so sure. I fly as many hours in a year that you've flown in
ten, based on one of your post to another reader.

As I said previously, I was not there and I am in no way judging your
actions or implying that you did anything wrong.

I was only attempting to suggest possible options for people to consider
when things do not go as we might expect. For all I know you may well have
considered these as well as others.

Next time I get over to that side of the world I'll stop by the Alexis Park
Inn and introduce myself.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:hhtwd.207711$V41.132095@attbi_s52...
I have flown into Dubuque a few times so I'm familiar with the area. I
have
also more frequently fly in and out of much busier Class D airspaces
than
Dubuque, most all of which have traffic simultaneously on left and right
down winds. I have no problem with this.

..

I've flown into Oshkosh and Sun N Fun numerous times -- arguably the
busiest
airspace in the world -- and not seen (and heard) more people landing than
we did in Dubuque. It was just a fluke thing, with many students, many
simultaneous arrivals, and one doofus pilot all arriving in DBQ at once.

Twenty minutes later, eating breakfast, we saw nary a plane landing.

I'm sure you've already seen all the "see and avoid is your
responsibility,
not the controllers" etc etc... I was not there so I am not condemning
your
actions, but... snip

Not to pick on you, PJ, but I always have to laugh at the folks on the
newsgroups who immediately swing the old "it's your responsibility to see
and avoid" bat whenever I (or anyone else, for that matter) brings up
problems with controlled airspace. NO ONE is arguing that it is not our
responsibility to see and avoid. NO ONE is advocating any other rule, and
NO ONE is abdicating that responsibility. This point of this thread is an
entirely separate issue, and ONLY pertains to my perceptions of the
weaknesses of the FAA's concept of Class D airspace.

For example, did you notify the controller that you 'had the traffic
insight" and if you thought he was in the 'wrong' position in the
pattern,
did you relay your concerns to the controller?

IMHO it would be inappropriate to call out "traffic in sight" to a
controller who (a) had not called out traffic to me specifically, and (b)
was rattling off instructions a mile a minute to half a dozen other
planes.
Trust me, if the airwaves had been silent, Mary would have been asking ATC
what the heck that guy was doing.

We are all responsible for proper safety and communication it every bit
as
important as "see and avoid".

Agreed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I doubt you have flown into an environment that was busier than that
segment
of time that Mary and I hit Dubuque.

Jay, don't be so sure. I fly as many hours in a year that you've flown in
ten, based on one of your post to another reader.

You fly 900+ hours per year?

As I said previously, I was not there and I am in no way judging your
actions or implying that you did anything wrong.

I know.

Next time I get over to that side of the world I'll stop by the Alexis
Park
Inn and introduce myself.

We'll keep the beacon on for ya!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Yes I do. Actually a bit higher.

It was more tempting when I thought you said "We'll keep the bacon on for
ya!"

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================