High Speed Passes & the FAA

Flying head down is never necessary. The center of the finish cylinder is
almost always close to some visible marker on the airport. If it isn't, I ask
the CD to move it so it is. My software beeps when I cross the boundary of the
cylinder, does yours? Finally, I only glance at the computer once in a while to
see if I'm falling below glide slope, which I'd also be doing with a 50 foot
gate. But then again, I'm not anal about finishing at precisely 500 feet...

I don't agree. When you approach a cylinder, you are aiming at its
center. I haven't seen a computer program that optimizes the point on
the cycliner you should be aiming at given current position and
altitude and interpolates your desired finish height to that point.
Instead you are looking down as the distance clicks off, and checking
your altitude to make sure that you don't fall slightly short. As
noted in earlier threads this means more heads down and more
variations in traffic height and speed, all converging on a much
smaller area (the optimum point on the cylinder).

Finish lines are almost completely heads up. If you can't judge 50
feet looking out the window, you have problems... certainly becuase
your altimeter is showing a variation of 50 feet or more since you set
it at takeoff. Additionally, traffic speed is much closer to uniform.
Low, slow gliders land straight ahead rather than obstructing the
finish line. And I've yet to encounter a glider at my height circling
1 mile from a finish line.


91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes...

My high speed finish is typically the crosswind or downwind leg of my
pattern. I have, on several occasions, thermalled away from a high
speed pass (never at a contest). There you have an argument. Otherwise
I'm excercising my options as a pilot to conform to a standard
pattern... one established by contestants prior to the contest. I am
therefore within the requirements of 91.119.

Be careful when citing book and passage from the FARs. I know for a
fact that you don't follow some rules (none of us do) as scrupulously
as you are applying them in this case. I can find some gray in 91.119.
You'll be hard pressed to find any in 91.155.

Virtue: the behavior we demand of others, but excuse the lack of in
ourselves.

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
Flying head down is never necessary. The center of the finish cylinder is
almost always close to some visible marker on the airport. If it isn't, I
ask
the CD to move it so it is. My software beeps when I cross the boundary of
the
cylinder, does yours? Finally, I only glance at the computer once in a
while to
see if I'm falling below glide slope, which I'd also be doing with a 50 foot
gate. But then again, I'm not anal about finishing at precisely 500 feet...

I don't agree. When you approach a cylinder, you are aiming at its
center. I haven't seen a computer program that optimizes the point on
the cycliner you should be aiming at given current position and
altitude and interpolates your desired finish height to that point.

I'm not a mathematician, but I think you'll find that the point you should be
aiming for on the cylinder is on the line from your current position to the
center of the cylinder. Since, as far as I know, your computer is guiding you
towards the center of the cylinder from your current position, then you will
cross that optimal point.

Instead you are looking down as the distance clicks off, and checking
your altitude to make sure that you don't fall slightly short.

I'm not worried about falling slightly short, since I'm nearly always 500 feet
or more above the minimum finish altitude. Frankly, if your computer can't help
you navigate to the desired height at the edge of the cylinder, yell at the
designer, or get a new instrument or software. This isn't rocket science.

BTW, if you look carefully at SSA contest rules 10.9.3, it states quite clearly
that a finish is recorded when you enter the 3 dimensional cylinder. It does
not say you have to enter at the edge, you can also enter through the bottom.
What this means is that even if you cross the edge of the cylinder at lower than
the minimum height, as long as you can pull up and get a single fix within the
cylinder, you've got a finish.

Now, some buttheads somewhere will no doubt start coming in below the cylinder
and pulling up through the center, figuring this will give them a speed
advantage. It won't, since while you finish time is recorded where you enter
the cylinder, your finish distance only goes to the edge.

As noted in earlier threads this means more heads down and more
variations in traffic height and speed, all converging on a much
smaller area (the optimum point on the cylinder).

If everyone is coming from the same final turnpoint, then they will all converge
on pretty much the same point, whether using a finish gate or a cylinder. When
everyone is not coming from the same final turnpoint (i.e. an MAT), everyone
still converges on pretty much the same point with a finish gate, but they do
not converge with a cylinder.

Again, the advantage of a finish cylinder is that those people who have
sufficient energy (and don't feel the need to make low pass), end up overhead
the airport well over 500 feet, at a comfortable speed, with plenty of time to
assess the traffic situation, watch out for those on marginal glides, go through
their checklist, etc. This has worked very well at every contest I've flown in
that used a finish cylinder. The only recent contest where I've felt
stressed/hurried during finishes, was one where a few traditionalists browbeat
the CD into using a GPS finish gate.

Be careful when citing book and passage from the FARs. I know for a
fact that you don't follow some rules (none of us do) as scrupulously
as you are applying them in this case. I can find some gray in 91.119.
You'll be hard pressed to find any in 91.155.

The original quote from your message was:

As for the FARs, aircraft regularly take off and land withn 500
feet of people, structures, and other aircraft at commercial airports.
This is by necessity.

And my point was, yes indeed, this happens, and it's perfectly legal according
to 9.119.

Virtue: the behavior we demand of others, but excuse the lack of in
ourselves.

The only virtue that I request of others on this group is that they actually
read and consider what is said...

Marc

Andy has proposed that Minden place a finish line 1000 feet sout east of the
approach end of 30, that extends 3300 feet to the north east. Let's look at a
finisher on a MAT type task that is coming in from the north, say Dayton.The
finisher would be forced to fly right past the safety of the airport, leaving
its runways behind, and to continue on past the end of 30, on out another 1000
feet and then HOOK the GATE. Because he is "Hooking the gate", he is also
forced to be another 3300 feet to the east, in order stay out of the gate, so
as to avoid hesd-on traffic in the gate. Some would say, The a low finisher,
that found himself in this situation, could be allowad to make a rolling finish
on any runway. That brings up the penalty for making a rolling finish. It
should be substantial, because our finisher has just cut off at least 2 miles
from the rask a similar finisher must fly.

Am I the ONLY one that sees what's happening here? We have moved the gate way
out in the weeds (Band-Aid no.1). We have made the finisher stay out of
opposing head-on traffic by forcing him to stay 3300 feet farther to the east
(Band-Aid no.2).We have given him a big rolling finish penalty (Band-Aid no.
3). I think it's time to count the Band-Aids on the Finish Line. I count 3, all
right on top of a massive wound. JJ recommends amputation. What do you think,
Doctor?
JJ Sinclair

Not sure I'd use a gate for MATs - for the 'hook the
gate' reason you describe. Having finishers coming
from all directions strikes me as a poor idea irrespective
of type of finish. But, in any scenario were the gate
lines up with the finish direction you'd be pulling
up right into a downwind for Runway 30. If coming
from the north you'd have to stay clear of people/vehicles
on the closed runway.

I won't belabor the point about Minden any further
as I think it should be CD discretion on how to organize
finishes based on the local environment (and out of
concern over further boring readers who don't fly there).
Certainly I didn't mean to criticize your discretion
in how you set it up as CD, just that it would be possible
without being in violation of FARs - which was the
original question on this thread. Speaking personally
I prefer the cylinder to the gate because it reduces
pilot workload (I just don't like the 500' part).

Oh, and thanks for not making it personal - a relative
rarity on ras.

9B

At 15:24 04 October 2003, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Andy has proposed that Minden place a finish line 1000
feet sout east of the
approach end of 30, that extends 3300 feet to the north
east. Let's look at a
finisher on a MAT type task that is coming in from
the north, say Dayton.The
finisher would be forced to fly right past the safety
of the airport, leaving
its runways behind, and to continue on past the end
of 30, on out another 1000
feet and then HOOK the GATE. Because he is 'Hooking
the gate', he is also
forced to be another 3300 feet to the east, in order
stay out of the gate, so
as to avoid hesd-on traffic in the gate. Some would
say, The a low finisher,
that found himself in this situation, could be allowad
to make a rolling finish
on any runway. That brings up the penalty for making
a rolling finish. It
should be substantial, because our finisher has just
cut off at least 2 miles
from the rask a similar finisher must fly.

Am I the ONLY one that sees what's happening here?
We have moved the gate way
out in the weeds (Band-Aid no.1). We have made the
finisher stay out of
opposing head-on traffic by forcing him to stay 3300
feet farther to the east
(Band-Aid no.2).We have given him a big rolling finish
penalty (Band-Aid no.
3). I think it's time to count the Band-Aids on the
Finish Line. I count 3, all
right on top of a massive wound. JJ recommends amputation.
What do you think,
Doctor?
JJ Sinclair

Our barn has that gray grungy look that old wood gets, so I have been
power-washing it in preparation for a coat of clear Urethane. Now power washing
is a monotonous task, so I started thinking about Finish Line Accidents. Surely
we must have had some, then, way up at the top of my 20 foot ladder, I
remembered ONE. Uvalde, August, 1986. It was the first Nationals at Uvalde,
15 meter I think Anyway, this ASW-20 driver hit the Finish Line, low and fast
(in those days, 5 feet was OK) He then pulled up and proceeded off the airport
to the North and crashed in a housing area. KS remembers, we helped remove the
wreckage from this guys pick-up truck and front yard. Pilot was severely
injured, but recovered satisfactorily.

It was widely suspected that the pilot was suffering from dehydration. So, not
a Finish Line Accident, just a medical condition, Right? Dr. Cannon has
lectured frequently about dehydration in contests, he says a dehydrated pilot
can be functioning OK, even though he is becoming seriously dehydrated. He can
find Uvalde (this was before GPS) He can perform his high speed, low altitude
pass through the Finish Line, But when he pulls some G's in his pull-up, the
G's can be more than his severely dehydrated mind can handle and
.............................................CRUNC H, he crashes in a housing
area.

I finished up the back of the barn and was washing the South side (much easier,
don't need the ladder) and I remembered ANOTHER Finish Line Accident. Cal City,
Nimbus 2, (Cindy can give dates & details) This Nimbus 2 driver comes in low,
but not very fast, flew through the Finish Line and pulled up very steeply,
stalled and was killed, right in front of the Finish Line. It was widely
believed that the pilot was dehydrated, was able to find Cal City, performed
his low pass through the Finish Line and
................................................

Your Honor, The Prosecution Rests,
JJ Sinclair

Hey JJ - What about high-speed passes in motor-gliders ?
See ya, Dave

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Isn't there an FAR that says aviators will not fly below 500 feet, if over
people, places or things, unless they are in the act of landing? This
question
was asked by a pilots wife/crew at a nationals. Her motorhome was located
on a
permanently closed runway about 500 feet from the active runway. The
finish
line was over the closed runway. I didn't have an answer for her, do you?
JJ Sinclair

Drink your water and don't pull G's 'till you pass
out.

That power washer will keep you hydrated!

You know I can't resist telling you how unsafe it is
to stand on top of that 20' step ladder you mentioned.
I think it's even more dangerous than contest finishes.


Here are some facts from a Ladder Safety website:

'Every day, one person dies as the result of a ladder
fall. Each year, 65,000 people sustain injuries severe
enough to require treatment in hospital emergency rooms.'

Might have to ban you from power washing your barn
- for your own safety, of course.

;-)

The defense rests (with a chuckle).

9B


At 20:48 04 October 2003, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Our barn has that gray grungy look that old wood gets,
so I have been
power-washing it in preparation for a coat of clear
Urethane. Now power washing
is a monotonous task, so I started thinking about Finish
Line Accidents. Surely
we must have had some, then, way up at the top of my
20 foot ladder, I
remembered ONE. Uvalde, August, 1986. It was the
first Nationals at Uvalde,
15 meter I think Anyway, this ASW-20 driver hit the
Finish Line, low and fast
(in those days, 5 feet was OK) He then pulled up and
proceeded off the airport
to the North and crashed in a housing area. KS remembers,
we helped remove the
wreckage from this guys pick-up truck and front yard.
Pilot was severely
injured, but recovered satisfactorily.

It was widely suspected that the pilot was suffering
from dehydration. So, not
a Finish Line Accident, just a medical condition, Right?
Dr. Cannon has
lectured frequently about dehydration in contests,
he says a dehydrated pilot
can be functioning OK, even though he is becoming seriously
dehydrated. He can
find Uvalde (this was before GPS) He can perform his
high speed, low altitude
pass through the Finish Line, But when he pulls some
G's in his pull-up, the
G's can be more than his severely dehydrated mind can
handle and
.............................................CRUN CH,
he crashes in a housing
area.

I finished up the back of the barn and was washing
the South side (much easier,
don't need the ladder) and I remembered ANOTHER Finish
Line Accident. Cal City,
Nimbus 2, (Cindy can give dates & details) This Nimbus
2 driver comes in low,
but not very fast, flew through the Finish Line and
pulled up very steeply,
stalled and was killed, right in front of the Finish
Line. It was widely
believed that the pilot was dehydrated, was able to
find Cal City, performed
his low pass through the Finish Line and
............................................... .

Your Honor, The Prosecution Rests,
JJ Sinclair

IMHO mid air collisions are the worry.

The closer to VNE you fly the simpler the lookout and
collision avoidance issue (with respect to other gliders)
becomes.

Close to the ground there is less chance there is of
hitting a glider in the blind spot below you.

There are generally more gliders around an airfield
then anywhere else.

Ergo, if you want safe finishes, (including avoiding
close outlandings) you want to get gliders back low
and fast and look at the issue as one of flow control
i.e. does everyone know where to go and what to do
after the finish pull up. This is, in effect, what
has been informally and safely sorted out by pilots
and comp directors for decades.

A close remote high finish potentially leaves a number
of gliders milling around at or below normal circuit
height getting in each others way and increases the
collision risk.

John Galloway

At 19:06 05 October 2003, Marc Ramsey wrote:
I'm not a mathematician, but I think you'll find that
the point you should be aiming for on the cylinder

is on the line from your current position to the
center of the cylinder. Since, as far as I know,
your computer is guiding you towards the center
of the cylinder from your current position,
then you will cross that optimal point.

This is correct - the shortest distance to the cylinder
is on a radial from the center.

Frankly, if your computer can't help you navigate to
the desired height at the edge of the cylinder, yell

at the designer, or get a new instrument or software.

This isn't rocket science.

I think the point is navigating to a point in space
requires monitoring glide angle to the 500'/1mile point.
I am aware of computers that beep when you cross the
cylinder, but not of any that tell you along the way
if you are GOING TO make it. This is what requires
the heads-down time. Or leaving a minute or so of time
on the clock for enough extra altitude to not have
to worry about it.

Also, the 'get a new computer' point contradicts the
purported logic for recent rules changes (such as 15
min) - that it excludes some pilots from competition
to require the 'latest and greatest' computer technology.
I don't buy that logic and it looks like you don't
either, but it is out there.

BTW, if you look carefully at SSA contest rules 10.9.3,
it states quite clearly that a finish is recorded when
you enter the 3 dimensional cylinder. It does not
say you have to enter at the edge, you can also enter
through the bottom. What this means is that even if
you cross the edge of the cylinder at lower than the
minimum height, as long as you can pull up and get
a single fix within the cylinder, you've got a finish.


Now, some buttheads somewhere will no doubt start
coming in below the cylinder and pulling up through

the center, figuring this will give them a speed
advantage. It won't, since while you finish time is

recorded where you enter the cylinder, your
finish distance only goes to the edge.

Actually, I think the optimal is to be close to zero
feet just before 1 mile, then do a ballistic pullup
(to roughly zero mph - depending on initial speed)
right at 500' and 1 mile (kind of like pole vaulting).
This presumes you carry extra potential energy on the
glide as a buffer. Otherwise the optimal is to fly
Mc speed corresponding to your last climb right to
the 500'/1 mi point. If you hit a little sink you could
do a mini-ballistic pullup at the edge or go hunting
for lift (at 500'). This potential practice is the
logic behind John Cochrane's finish donut suggestion
- the cost of which is even more pressure on heads
down computer time to clear the 1-mile deep donut and/or
trying to find lift to reach the bottom of the cylinder.

I am not recommending any of these techniques - it's
just what the rules encourage the foolhardy (or desparate)
to try.

At least with the finish at ground level at the airport
you have a continuous visual reference as to whether
you are gaining or losing on the glide angle, keeping
the pilot's head out of the cockpit - that's the main
point.

9B

Andy Blackburn wrote:
...
This is correct - the shortest distance to the cylinder
is on a radial from the center.
...

Not correct if there is some cross wind.