Puchaz spin count 23 and counting

JJ,

Again you demonstrate your somewhat tenuous grasp of
the facts and geography.. There is nothing legally
stopping someone operating and flying gliders outside
of the BGA umbrella in the UK or even the bit called
england.

I'm happy to carry on listening to you talk out of
your arse by
email, but I suspect we're boring the rest of group..

Mark




At 15:12 09 February 2004, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Mark wroteI pointed out that the government
did not require us to do anything, and the BGA (the
SSA equivalent) made those decisions in a fully deregulated
manner unlike you guys with the FAA all over you..

Mark,
The BGA IS the government, you just don't realize it.
You MUST do what the BGA
says, if you wish to fly gliders in England. We don't
have to do ANYTHING the
SSA tells us to do. I believe your government (BGA)
is telling you to do 2 turn
spins in both directions, on initial check-out and
every spring thereafter.

Most of our instructors, exercising their freedom of
choice, teach spin
recognition and spin avoidance. We feel that ANY spin
accident that accured
after the glider was intentionally put into a spin,
can NOT justified.
JJ Sinclair

On 9 Feb 2004 09:17:28 GMT, Mark Stevens
wrote:

In my opinion any comparison with the withdrawal of
spin training for US PPL's is invalid, power pilots
do not routinely fly at high angles of attack, and
tend not to use the rudder in most phases of flight.
They also tend not to make the number of outlandings
glider pilots do and tend not to have the same problems
to solve in the pattern..


Do you fly power?
I got my power licence after 27 years gliding.
Where do you get the idea that power pilots don't use the rudder?
Rudder is used as required. In most power planes not much rudder is
required because of the design of the ailerons and the short wings but
it is still required if you want to keep the ball in the middle. Put a
well trained power pilot in a glider and he might take a couple of
minutes to figure it out but that is about all. He probably will take
a little longer to do good coordinated continuous steep turns but that
is only because glider pilots do many more than power pilots do.
Hopefully power pilots don't do many outlandings but I was impressed
by the amount of time spent during training on forced landings and
then you have a far worse problem than in a glider.

JJ might fill you in on use of rudder at high AOA in power planes like
the F4.

Mike Borgelt

On 2/9/04 3:32 PM, in article ,
"Mike Borgelt" wrote:

JJ might fill you in on use of rudder at high AOA
in power planes like the F4.

....and in the F-100, for example, where improper rudder use will take you
out of the fight in a hurry, and not in a good way. Rudder coordination is
certainly not something with which fighter pilots, and tail-dragger pilots,
are unfamiliar.


-----
Jack
-----

Errr

Mike..in answer to your points...

I don't have much power experience, but people I have
flown with and coverted to gliders include an ETPS
graduate, a lightning pilot and ex RAF low level aerobatics
champion and a number of high hour ATPL's - and I've
listened intently to what they've said during the conversion
process..

Perhaps I should have excluded fighter and aerobatic
pilots specifically from my comments, but I did not
say spam can pilots never used the rudder nor that
they never fly at high AOA..

During my own power training in the UK (again post
learning to glide like you) I was not terribly impressed
with the forced landing training.

As has been said here before glider pilots spend most
of the time flying in the lower 40% of the speed range
of their airframe and power pilots (F4's, world record
attempts, test flying, excursions into outer space
and so on excluded) spend most of the time in the upper
40% of their speed range..

I normally respect your opinion on these sort of things,
but I do wish you would read what I wrote and not what
you thought I wrote..

Mark

At 21:36 09 February 2004, Mike Borgelt wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 09:17:28 GMT, Mark Stevens
wrote:

In my opinion any comparison with the withdrawal of
spin training for US PPL's is invalid, power pilots
do not routinely fly at high angles of attack, and
tend not to use the rudder in most phases of flight.
They also tend not to make the number of outlandings
glider pilots do and tend not to have the same problems
to solve in the pattern..


Do you fly power?
I got my power licence after 27 years gliding.
Where do you get the idea that power pilots don't use
the rudder?
Rudder is used as required. In most power planes not
much rudder is
required because of the design of the ailerons and
the short wings but
it is still required if you want to keep the ball in
the middle. Put a
well trained power pilot in a glider and he might take
a couple of
minutes to figure it out but that is about all. He
probably will take
a little longer to do good coordinated continuous steep
turns but that
is only because glider pilots do many more than power
pilots do.
Hopefully power pilots don't do many outlandings but
I was impressed
by the amount of time spent during training on forced
landings and
then you have a far worse problem than in a glider.

JJ might fill you in on use of rudder at high AOA in
power planes like
the F4.

Mike Borgelt

Kirk,

These are my experiences as a trainee...

When I learnt to glider, all my spin training was done
from straight from 2000' aerotows. My instructor pulled
the nose up booted the rudder in and over we went..
Over time he allowed me to do the same. My thoughts
at the time were that if for some reason I pulled the
nose up hard I would not boot the rudder in and wondered
why anyone would..

A few months later I had changed clubs and was flying
with an instructor who first demonstrated how nose
low spins could happen.. The first time we did this
at 1000' ft I had an almost irresitable urge as the
world went green/brown to pull back on the stick..
That was one of the most memorable moments of being
instructed..

Mark

At 14:18 10 February 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message
news:...
W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\). wrote:

'As this training progresses, it is necessary to introduce
brief
spins where
the ground is noticeably close.

This reminds me of the old FAA requirement to practice
twin engine-out
procedures (Vmc demonstration) at low altitudes during
multiengine
training, the reasoning being the low performance of
the existing
twin-engined trainers required a low altitude in order
to have any
single-engine climb available to show. Apparently,
this killed a LOT
of pilots due to stall spins at low altitude in light
twins - not fun
with an engine caged! - until the FAA decided that
the cure was a lot
worse than the disease.

Sure, with a really experienced instructor, and a really
trusted
glider, a low altitude spin could be 'safely' demonstrated.
But I'm
not totally convinced that it is necessary for the
lesson to sink in.
OTOH, in the context of spin training, it is absolutely
vital to beat
into the students head the nasty impact (pun intended)
of a surprise
low altitude departure.

You guys (the Brits) can possibly get away with it,
due to much more
standardization (a good thing). I would hate to see
it adopted in the
US, where standardization is a one of dem big woids
we aint learnd in
skool.

How about our French, German, Dutch, etc. colleagues
- How low do you
teach (or demonstrate; not necessarily the same thing)
low altitude
spin entries?

BTW, don't forget 1812 (we still need to burn 10 Downling
Street) and
Suez (Now there was a virtuous war!). Just joking,
we love you man!

Kirk

Mark,

Along the lines of - 'why is divorce so expensive?
because it's worth it' ..:-)

Mark.

At 18:12 08 February 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
Mark Stevens wrote:

A couple of years ago a friend and I were sitting in
a bar on the 4th of July in Houston and got chatting
to some of the locals.. They gleefully reminded us
what they were celebrating... We commented we had come
over for that very purpose..

LOL. Even the wife thought that one was witty...
(she usually only laughs when I trip over something).

On 2/8/04 5:18 AM, in article ,
"Mark Stevens" wrote:

And of course here in the UK we look with some amusement
at...the preventative affect on crime of a prison incarceration
rate about eight times the european average.

If we just had a distant land, peopled only by a few aboriginals, to which
we could send those misfits, I am sure it would be much more economical than
sheltering and feeding them here at our expense. Our surrounding moat is
also a bit narrow, in some places non-existent, and I'm sure that reflects
badly somehow on our judgment and character. Perhaps you Brits would be
willing to take on a few of tens of thousands of these excessively
incarcerated individuals. Surely, you can make peaceful productive citizens
of them simply by offering free medical care and an environment in which
their potential victims have almost no means of defending themselves.

If there were any imperfections or glaring anachronisms in UK culture, I'm
sure I would be not only unqualified to criticize them but also totally
uninterested, since I neither live, vote, nor pay taxes there. Your
expertise on matters social has been noted however, and I trust you won't
mind our calling on you to help us find our footing in the swamp of
inadequacy and despair in which we find ourselves.

When you have taken a goodly number of those unfortunates (whom we have so
obviously failed) and made them welcome as members of your glider syndicate,
perhaps you would be so kind as to report on your progress in teaching them
to spin Puchaz, and thereby draw this thread back on topic.


-----
Jack
-----

At 16:00 08 February 2004, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Mark,
I guess it comes down to a matter of government control,
doesn't it? You Brits
require fully developed spins and us Yanks allow our
instructors to demonstrate
and instruct as they see fit.

You Brits collect all the guns and us Yanks allow our
citizens to protect
themselves.

You Brits force everyone into a state health care system
and us Yanks allow our
citizens to choose.

It all comes down to a matter of freedom to choose,
didn't we fight a war with
you chaps over this?

I'm sorry, but I can't resist this even though it's a bit off-topic: (deliberate misinterpretation) the only war we fought with you (the one about independence) we lost. The other one involved the UK in conflict that was more about securing middle eastern resources and oil for the west and protecting a bunch of magpies living on the coast of the mediteranean sea than it was about protecting us from WMD's. The arguments being presented now about how wonderful it is that a despotic regime has been removed ignore the fact that the same regime was heartily supported through the 80's by the US and the UK, amonst others.

Bring it on...

Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick,
I just activated my time machine and its now 1938. Now, do we DO something
about Hitler or just let him involve us in another world war?

Our recent war had more to do with removing a Hitler type threat, than anything
to do with oil.
JJ Sinclair

Mark Stevens wrote in message ...
Chris,

Some gentle reminders about reality here in the UK..


Mark, no need to be gentle. I can stand a good pummeling, so long as
its delivered with skill and panache.

Mine was an honest reaction to yet another account of a pilot being
asked to intentionally spin a glider at low altitude by a flight
instructor certified by the BGA. I would expect this of maverick
instructors in the US, but I had been given the impression that the
BGA did a much more successful job of homogonizing training practices.

Spin training is good. Stall recognition and recovery is better. The
two together, with emphasis on the latter and careful instruction in
the former is best. I think we're on the same page here.