Landout Laws

Wonderful post. One wee addition.

A friend of mine swore by a wrinkle to the "offer to take the owner's
picture with the glider using

your digital camera and email him the photo" strategy. His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally! Well worth the risk to his glider, he figured, to have someone ready to be disappointed should his/her father take a hard line with this extraordinary visitor.

Bruce


Chip Bearden wrote:

With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
offering $100 for several reasons:

1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.

2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."

3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
with a substantial demand.

I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.

Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."

The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
heard a word.

The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
and extract revenge!

It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.

My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
a claim, etc.

And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
you should get your family involved in soaring.

If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
win-win for everyone.

These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative.

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden



* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:29:58 UTC, Bruce Friesen
wrote:

: His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally!

I always carry a spare gliding club T-shirt in the back for
child-bribery purposes. I know someone who carries a box of chocolates
for the farmer's wife as well, but even in the UK I think it can get a
bit warm for that ...

Ian

--

Bruce Friesen wrote:
Wonderful post. One wee addition.

A friend of mine swore by a wrinkle to the "offer to take the owner's
picture with the glider using

your digital camera and email him the photo" strategy. His idea was to
get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and
promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally! Well

That always works here (NL) too. I've heard of people offering a small
bottle of liquor as a bribe. Nothing fancy, not big at all. Bye,

David
NL

I disagree. I think Bob Kuykendall is dead on the money.

No matter what happens in the future, you have to get your ship out. And it
is unlikely that anyone will sacrifice their Ventus for the sake of
soaring's posterity.

Make the offer of a hundred bucks. It is a lot cheaper than what he will do
with a tractor and a chain, or what a dozen cattle with do with their
tongues.

It is not fair. But do it because it is smart. Forget theories and logic.
Get your glider out. The longer he has it, the more it is his.

He voted for the sheriff who is his cousin anyway.

I have dealt with ranchers successfully all my adult life. They are a lot
like suburbanites and apartment dwellers...just more spread out. They object
to people getting inside their space whether it's rational or not. Once
inside, they want to exercise power.

They get tired of people shooting their cattle, dumping garbage on their
land, and living better than them. You are the personification of all those
mysterious "city people" that **** him off. On the other hand, he knows that
you know where he lives and his assets cannot be protected from uncivilized
acts. He is thinking that the whole time you are standing there. Of course,
you wouldn't shoot all his cattle in the ribs or put a hole in his aqua
ammonia tank or put 2, 4-D in his spray rig or Crazy Glue in all his locks,
but he doesn't know that.

You should be willing to show a little starch. Be polite but don't kiss ass.
He did not want you there but once you are, it is a little like the love
scene in Deliverance. If he wanted you gone all that bad, he would help you
leave. He is trying to exercise power. You don't have to threaten to let him
know that he better not screw with your airplane or you will do whatever
ominous and arcane things that city people do to rural people.

I do not recommend doing this at home but once a farmer told me that he was
going to lock the gate. I did all the Bob Kuykendall things and he still
wanted to shove me around. So, I told him I was going to drive through his
fence. I think he got the idea that I wanted to kick his stupid face in more
than I wanted my glider back...and by then, hypoglycemic and tired, I really
really did. I'm not a pretty guy and when I am thinking about cannibalism,
it shows.

More acceptable versions of this exist in the form of straight, un-hurried
talk, eye contact, friendliness, and plain dealing. If he is a jerk, he will
still be one. If he is okay, he will stay okay. But I have seen lots of guys
go in winning and come out losing because of the way they handled it.

That's your first lesson in Rancher 101. There WILL be a quiz.

I have absolutely no legal training, but I landed in a ciruit court
judge's field once. He wasn't happy, but over time we managed to cool
off and talk about the particulars. Here's what came out of the
conversation:

When you land in a field, you are trespassing, and you should conduct
yourself as such.

The owner, can, in theory, order you off his property. If he forces
you to leave your sailplane behind, he becomes liable for its safe
keeping.

The law is your friend. If things get out of hand, recommend that he
call the authorities, or call them yourself. They don't want to do any
paperwork unless there is obvious damage. They will usually calm the
farmer down and expedite your retrieve.

Since you have already done damage to his property (by landing on it),
don't exacerbate the situation by causing more. Cutting a gate chain
or lock is tantamount to breaking into his place of work. How would
you feel if someone knocked down the door to your business, then put
up a new one with a note saying the key is in the mail? (I've faced
the same dilemma and chosen the path of breaking and entering. Just be
clear that there's NO justification for your actions, certainly not
from the point of view of the property owner. It is very possible you
may expose him to more financial risk by your actions than the value
of your $100K glider. You are jeopardizing his income for the sake of
your overpriced plastic toy.)

Never offer money to placate the farmer. Yes, it is convenient for
difusing an otherwise uncomfortable situation, but it sets an
undesirable precedent and puts both you and the farmer on questionable
legal ground. From your point of view, it is an admission of fault...
and who knows what fault the farmer may find after you leave. Don't
bring up the subject yourself. Let the farmer ask for money. Inform
him that you are insured for any damage you do and you are happy to
give him your insurance information. (We discussed whether asking for
money constituted running an unauthorized landing strip... I used this
notion once to answer such a demand. I then offered my insurance
information. It worked. The farmer wasn't happy, but at least he had
improved to "politely annoyed" by the time I left. He never followed
up with my insurance company.)

Reimbursing him for services offered is another matter entirely. If he
wants to use a tractor to fetch the glider, or prefers using his 4x4,
or wants one of his farmhands to oversee the retrieve, then it is OK
to offer a reasonable fee in exchange.

Never forget who the uninvited guest is. You've called him away from
his work. This has a measurable impact on his business. You may have
damaged his land, property, or livestock. You are, in his opinion, a
dilettante, serving no valuable function in the world. (If you don't
understand why, put yourself in his shoes, and get real.) Swallow the
farmer's antipathy with polite patience. After all, you deserve it.
And remember what your objective is: to get your glider home in one
piece... and hopefully leave an impression that will improve
conditions for the next sailplane pilot who lands there.

I had the opportunity to visit Seminole for the first time a few weeks ago -
and had a very good time. Ingrid and Knut made me feel very welcome, and it
was also a very welcome break from the miserable PA winter. I look forward
to returning often.

Every gliderport seems to have a few known fields where the owners are
unfriendly. Invariably it seems to be the result of the owner having been
treated poorly at some time in the past (even if no damage was done, just
not respecting the fact that you are a guest on their land and asking
permission to do anything is at the very least rude and disrespectful of
their ownership rights).

During my stay at Seminole, I had the opportunity to meet a number of
farmers/landowners :-/ One story that emerged consistently from them is
having been treated poorly by the hang-glider crowd (I understand that there
is quite a lot of hang-glider activity near Seminole). This ran the gamut
from rudeness to minor property damage to broken fences and loose livestock.
No one sees a difference between a hang glider and a sailplane.

I don't know that this problem reflects the current behavior of the
hang-glider crowd - and once the damage is done it doesn't matter. But be
aware that you may inherit the sins not only of your sibling but also of
your distant cousin when you land out, and need to repair relations you
didn't break. Also remember when flying in a new location to get as part of
your field check any info on the known problem landowners.
--
John Godfrey (QT)
SSA State Governor PA Region 3

"Charles Petersen" wrote in message
...
We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

I've been flying something for 34 years. That has included powered,
gliders, ultralights, paragliders and hang gliders. I would say that
assigning the blame for problems with landowners solely to the pilot of
whatever type of aircraft is involved is inappropriate without knowing the
circumstances involved in each case.

I have over 50 outlandings in gliders and several hundred in hang gliders.
I have been nothing but humble and gracious with landowners but have had a
few cases of irrate people no matter what I did or say to calm them down. I
have flown at Wallaby (one of the hang glider operations near Seminole) and
have visited, but not flown at Seminole. There are jerks in every facet of
aviation and in my experience no one group can say that they are better
ambassadors than another.

By virtue of the lesser performance of hang gliders they land out much more
often than sailplanes and that may be one reason that some landowners simply
get tired of seeing them especially those on the downwind side of the towing
operations.

The initial poster did the best he could and I would have probably have done
the same. There are just going to be some days that the bear gets you.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property. This
aircraft is licensed and operated in accordance with the rules, regulations,
and laws of the U S Goverment and its Dept. of Federal Aviation Adm. See that
registration number on the tail. If you do not wish to permit me to remove this
aircraft from your property, then so be it. I must, however, by Federal law
notify the the FAA that an aircraft incident has occured on your property. In
turn they will conduct an investigation within 24 to 48 hours of the incident
as well as you and your background and surrounding circunstances. I dont think
you want to deal with that, but if you do then so be it. Or, you can permit and
assist me in getting this aircraft off your property right NOW."

"PENN2P" wrote in message
...
TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I
did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property.
BIG SNIP//////


The only problem with this line of thinking is that the landing wasn't
an emergency. Off field landings, while not terribly common, are not
technically emergencies. They are unplanned events, but they do not
carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or the other things
emergencies
use for definition. In fact, the use of trailers and the use of a recovery
crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome. I wouldn't go there
if I didn't need to.

Scott.

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Cite?

There is plenty in soaring to be technical about, but aren't we really
dealing here with a state of mind?


They are unplanned events...

They are premeditated. They should be, and are, planned-for. They are not
necessarily intended.


...they do not carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or
the other things emergencies use for definition.

The closer you get to landing the more of an emergency a landout is. It is
not necessary in any other type of aviation activity with which I am
familiar to see injury or loss of life as imminent before one is encouraged
to declare an emergency. The point of categorizing a particular situation as
an emergency is most often as a proactive measure in order to avoid
imminence. Perhaps in contradiction of any unexamined expectations, I think
it is reasonable to say that a landout by a ranked competitor in a fast,
heavy, many-meter ship may be as dangerous, and as much an emergency, as an
A-Badger struggling into the same field in a 2-33.


...the use of trailers and the use of a recovery crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome.

....to the same extent that the provision of fire fighting equipment and
emergency medical teams at airline airports indicate that there is an
expectation they will be needed. The presence of mechanics with tools at
most airports is an indication that mechanical failures will occur. That
does not bar many types of failures from being considered emergency
conditions.


I wouldn't go there if I didn't need to.

With that I can agree wholeheartedly. Describing the average landout as an
emergency procedure might not be healthy for the sport, neither in a public
relations sense, in a regulatory sense, nor in the cause of recruiting new
participants.

Nonetheless, landouts are the closest thing I know of in soaring to the
number and variety of emergencies in other realms of aviation of which I
have first hand knowledge.

One has limited time, limited resources, and a more or less rapidly closing
window of opportunity for a successful outcome. Everywhere else in aviation,
that is enough to encourage crew members to assume an emergency condition
mindset, whether in order to avail themselves of assistance or just to
diminish the threat to themselves and others.

If the idea of being in an emergency condition from the time we leave for
the airport until the time we put on our slippers and light our pipes at the
end of the day is somewhat unsettling, then that may indicate a certain lack
of acceptance of the realities.

In soaring there are only three, after all. ;



Jack