How Low to Spin??

Tom Seim wrote:

I recently read the accident report of the ASW20 crash (fatal) at
Williams, CA. Per the check list, they did a positive control check of
the elevator by having the assistant (co-owner) hold the elevator
while the pilot applied force on the stick. Resistance was felt, check
list passed. Only problem was the elevator was not hooked up and what
the pilot felt was the push rod hitting the bottom of the elevator.
Now, if the guy just LOOKED at the connection it would have been
obvious that it was not hooked up (it is in plain site).

Following a list may give you tunnel
vision. A DC-9 was landed gear up by two experienced pilots following
a check list (they missed one step). They were so certain that they
had done everything right that they ignored the lack of the sound and
thump of the gear lowering (common sense, again).

I took my CFIG checkride with the FAA. On it, I told him
"there is no PCC in the schweizer manual for any checklist. The
checklist requires inspection during preflight of the connections.
I find the (over)use of the PCC distracts the pilot from the
more important action: checking the connection itself."

He nodded, and we moved on to other things.

My understanding of contests is that an "assisted PCC" is
required by many CDs. I wonder if an "assisted connection inspection"
wouldn't be a better, higher, priority...

As far as the DC-9, I'd guess this is another example of
information which is lost in the noise.

I remember asking a car dealer about his warranty. He had a
super long list of covered items. He said just about everything was
covered. I asked him to make a nice short list of what WASN'T
covered. He couldn't, and we parted.

Useful information is prioritized. When I write professionally,
I do a 200 word abstract, then a 1000 word introduction/summary,
then a 5000 word detail. And yes, the 200 word abstract is first.
I'd like to see all writing (including the checklists) follow this
idea. A few important points at the front, the nit details at the back.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:51:22 UTC, (Mark James
Boyd) wrote:

: And yes, the 200 word abstract is first.
: I'd like to see all writing (including the checklists) follow this
: idea. A few important points at the front, the nit details at the back.

You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Which is not to say that a /short/ list isn't useful, but sticking
more and more things on is just silly. Check lists are not operating
manuals.

Ian

--

I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:16:30 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
: Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
: something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
: and what the implications are if you don't do each one.

There is a lot of honest debate about how many of these are truly
necessary. For example, is your "W" for wind? If so, it should have
been checked a hell of a long time before trying to join the
"circuit". And if it has been, and the circuit planned to take account
of it, why specifically check again? Doesn't the practice of good
airmanship imply that this will be done anyway?

Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably
trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long
term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a
time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout?

I have had experienced full cat instructors tell me that they didn't
advocate any down wind checks at all, per se, as they claimed that
every single one should be a consequence of good airmanship. I don't
go that far myself, but the only ones which is seems to me might be
seens as circuit extras are Undercarriage (check only, should be down
already), Speed, Airbrakes (in case frozen). Everything else should
have been done before or is plain bleeding obvious. Do you really,
truly, know people who wouldn't check the intended landing area unless
they had a mnemonic? If so, should they be flying? [I think I know
one, and I don't think he should be.]

Ian

PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em,
what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...
--

Frank,

Not a troll. There's no BGA-mandated checklist for pre-landing checks, as
far as I know (this kind of thing changes regularly), and in any event as a
basic instructor I'm not permitted to let the student fly below 500 feet or
to teach this stuff, so what I wrote was about my own flying practices.
Certainly, in my pre-solo training (following the then BGA manual) in 1996/7
I wan't taught pre-landing checks.

What I was trying to respond to was the suggestion that consciously checking
Lookout is useless because we should all lookout in any event - I think this
*is* a useful reminder, as it's helpful to recognise the change in lookout
mode.

I believe I have the current BGA position right (though I don't speak for
the BGA in any way!) as follows: landing checklists are potentially
problematic because on training aircraft some parts don't apply - thus, e.g.
learning to say "Undercarriage - fixed" can cement the idea in a student's
mind that there is no need for action, so when moving to retractable
undercarriage they don't lower it. Instead, instructors teach the
appropriate elements which would form a checklist so that they become
entrenched as part of the routine for landing rather than items to be ticked
off on a mental checklist. Water and Flaps carry the same penalty.

(For what it's worth, I understand my wheels-up landing met all the common
criteria - 10th flight on retractable, so I'm just becoming comfortable with
it and not consciously thinking about the differences from previous
aircraft; high workload (trying to scratch away from a winch launch); and
distractions (other aircraft in the circuit and the launch point in an
unfamiliar place). Result - reversion to primary training which, of course,
was on fixed wheel aircraft).

In terms of my own flying (whether with students or solo) the thought
processes go roughly as follows:

W - not considered, as I currently fly nothing which carries water ballast.

U - do I have retractable undercarriage, and if so is it down? This is a
conscious element of my preparation for landing.

F - as for W

S - straps (though I always have to think, if someone asks me what WUFSTALL
means, whether this is not speed - thus in my mind it's a bad acronym
because it's not unique, and different from HASSL for stall/spin manoeuvres
because even if you can't remember which S is straps, one of them has to
be). I check these regularly throughout the flight, so this is an entrenched
item and not one requiring a conscious check

T - as above, I trim for every airspeed change, so this is entrenched
behaviour. I also don't like the way this substitutes for thinking about my
approach speed, as I could instead trim for my current speed. So my
conscious thought here is "What approach speed", which requires me to check
wind direction (not in checks), wind shear/gradient (not in checks), need
for a speed reserve if I might need to land long (aircraft fails to clear
the runway, not in checks) etc. etc.

A - airbrakes need checking if they might have frozen shut, but not
otherwise so far as I can see. Not confusing the airbrake lever with some
other lever is important, and I consciously check this if I'm flying an
aircraft where I could make this mistake.

LL - a conscious element because of the change of lookout mode.

There's also a whole set of other matters to think about which aren't on any
standard checklist, such as should the audio vario be turned off to avoid
distractions, is it appropriate to use my tailchute or not, would a radio
call announcing my presence be helpful, pointless or downright unhelpful (as
recently when a gaggle of competition fliers all lucked out overhead at the
same time and arrived from multiple directions) and so on.

It seems to me that the big question is whether pre-landing checks should be
taught or not. Some think yes, to deal with the pilot who isn't thinking
properly about the landing. Some think no, because the pilot must be taught
to think, rather than follow a list.

I was taught under the second philosophy, and I guess that's what became
entrenched in my approach to the issue, though if the BGA decides to
introduce teaching checklists for this, I'll learn and teach them.

The pre-launch checks (whichever version you use) are different - you
haven't started flying yet, and the brain needs to begin the switch-on
process.

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to
already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but
lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at
Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder
that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response
to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and
A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side
as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever
I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:39:37 UTC, "Chris Reed"
wrote:

: This is a different mode of lookout
: to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
: some point to remind me of the change of mode.

Good point. And the lookout I find useful to remember is for the bozo
making a straight in approach, so I have a good hard stare downwind
just before I turn final.

: S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto

You illustarte perfectly one of the problems with long mnemonics (and
I have had WWULFSSTALL recommended to me. Seriously.), which is that
it becomes hard to remember what each letter stands for, and tryting
to remember is a distraction. It's not exactly a stage of the flight
with lots of time for contemplation.

: , and A
: (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,

I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had
them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of
mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes) and while I am
perfectly happy to sideslip to round out - cue long, lomg, thread from
American cousins differentiating between "forward slips" and "side
slips" - I'd rather discover that I need to as early as possible.

: U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
: hoping not to do it again.

I was taught to lower the wheel as soon as I decided to land, even if
that was at 12,000', so U is a check, not an action. I wonder how many
people get used to gabbling "Undercarriagefixedonthisaircraft" (as
they gabble "Flapsnotfittedonthisaircraft" during CBSIFTCB (with a few
E's thrown in if you want)) and continue to do so even when it's not
true...

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

: , and A
: (airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,

I use it to crack 'em open and check that they work. I haven't had
them frozen closed yet, but it has happened to two different friend of
mine (comes of flying in the frozen northern wastes)

I've also had them frozen shut, but another reason for checking them is
to activate the gear warning if the gear isn't down and locked. That has
warned me at least 3 times.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Hi Chris
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.
You are right in that it should be automatic to be scanning the sky, but that is
not what I was taught the "lookout" item was for.
"Lookout" reminds you to look in different places - you are going to land, check
that the ground condition is good - runway clear, no cars/ gliders/ kids/
microlights or cows. YOu should already be looking for conflicting aerial traffic.


But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

Look at the statistics of experienced pilots damaging aircraft and themselves
because they tried to adjust their descent rate with the flaps or worse
undercarriage. Maybe the hoary old pilots with thousands of hours always know
they have their hand on the blue lever when they want to. Me- I still find it
useful to consciously think "what glider am I in, OK put your hand on the
airbrake lever, and crack them to be sure" Then I know I have my brakes sorted.

Same thing with speed and trim, just helps to think explicitly about how fast
you are landing.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...

You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...



The trim thing is also a safety thing, high workload tends to result in people
forgetting things like trim. Flying the circuit with some residual pressure on
the stick can have interesting effects when you get distracted. Tends to happen
after a long fast final glide - to me at any rate. More to the point what speed
are you trimming for - are you sure it is right.

It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand
why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am
looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist.

No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I
find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the
value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted
practice. Most glider pilots are not fools. (well with the possible exception of
irrational desire for more span) Generally I have found good reasons for most of
the habits and standards, even if they are not always entirely obvious. Ricardo
Semler claims you should always ask Why? three times at least. Works for me.

Bruce

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:00:35 UTC, Bruce Greeff
wrote:

: It's a good discipline to use the checklist - much more important to understand
: why each item is there. If all you are doing is going "lookout - check I am
: looking out" you are wasting your time with the checklist.
:
: No personal slight intended, but as a general comment I have found that if I
: find there is a generally accepted practice in flying that one can't see the
: value of, it is important to find out why it has become generally accepted
: practice.

A good point. The difficulty comes from an inherent contradiction: if
safety comes from considering your (ie one's) actions fully, surely
accepting somebody else's checklist is quite the opposite? Not to
mention the problem that - in the UK anyway - there is no genrally
accepted practice. There are lots of different versions of the
downwind check list - which should one use? Should it always be the
longest possible?

Personally, I think the best idea is to work out a personal check
list, where each item appears as a result of thought and decision.
And, of course, discussion with other pilots and instructors,
intelligent reading of accident reports and so on.

I use USTAL. U(ndercarriage) is there because I normally fly wooden
gliders, and it reminds me to think about whether there is a skid
there to use in extremis. It's a good time to rethink my target
S(peed). T(rim) is pointless, I reckon, but I can't forget it, damn
it. A(irbrakes) might freeze shut and L(anding area) is my cue to make
sure that I have Plans A, B and C clear in my mind.

I don't waste time reminding myself that I don't have F(laps) or
W(ater), and I've thought about (W)ind long, long before. And I don't
mutter L(ookout) to myself because it might distract me from the
important business of looking out.

Ian

PS And why on earth do we, before launch, check the controls before
making sure that we're within the weight limits for the glider?