USA - All students must show "papers"

Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.



At 18:00 08 October 2004, Tango4 wrote:
How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on
say a new 777? Do they
have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they
teach 'em in a sim
and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?

:-J

Ian


'tango4' wrote in message
...
So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction?
Has that
killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight
training for
European pilots?

What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before
taking a club or FBO
ship?

Talk about overkill!

Ian


'Tom Serkowski' wrote in message
m...
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html

Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to
recieve instruction
- including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship
to the
instructor. Very scary.

I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI
allows a passenger
to touch the controls, that is considered instruction
in the TSA's
eyes.

The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL
naturalization
certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my
certificate it
says it is illegal to copy it.

I called SSA today regarding another subject and also
asked about
this. The office person I talked to knew nothing.
And of course the
SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately
on another
call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.

Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E (5Z)

and Dave C is a TSA authority how?

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Tom-

Dave C. at Mile-Hi said an existing license counts...I
just called him.



At 18:00 08 October 2004, Tango4 wrote:
How does Boeing get a non-US citizen to check out on
say a new 777? Do they
have to do it outside the borders of the US or do they
teach 'em in a sim
and let 'em loose on the real thing straight away?

:-J

Ian


'tango4' wrote in message
...
So I take it no visitors to the US can get any instruction?
Has that
killed all the flight schools offering cheaper flight
training for
European pilots?

What about visiting pilots wanting a checkride before
taking a club or FBO
ship?

Talk about overkill!

Ian


'Tom Serkowski' wrote in message
m...
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/regtsa.html

Beginning October 20, 2004, all pilots wishing to
recieve instruction
- including a BFR, must show proff of US citizenship
to the
instructor. Very scary.

I have heard from a reliable source that if a CFI
allows a passenger
to touch the controls, that is considered instruction
in the TSA's
eyes.

The instructor must see a document such as an ORIGINAL
naturalization
certificate and keep a copy for 5 years. Yet on my
certificate it
says it is illegal to copy it.

I called SSA today regarding another subject and also
asked about
this. The office person I talked to knew nothing.
And of course the
SSA website is also mute on this. Dennis was unfortunately
on another
call, so I didn't get a chance to ask him.

Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E (5Z)

Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

Any U.S. citizen applying for training, including recurrent training,
in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds must present the
flight school or flight instructor with evidence of U.S. citizenship.
Evidence may be shown by one of the following:
Valid unexpired U.S. passport
Original birth certificate and government-issued picture ID
Original U.S. naturalization or citizenship certificate with raised
seal and government-issued picture ID
Original certificate of U.S. citizenship and government-issued picture
ID
The flight school or flight instructor will retain a copy of the
documentation for a period of 5 years.
Impact to flight schools and freelance flight instructors:

Any flight school or a freelance flight instructor providing training
in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds must comply with the
following:
Determine whether an individual is an U.S. citizen. Evidence may be
shown by one of the following:
Valid unexpired U.S. passport
Original birth certificate and government-issued picture ID
Original U.S. naturalization or citizenship certificate with raised
seal and government-issued picture ID
Original certificate of U.S. citizenship and government-issued picture
ID
Register with TSA if providing training to foreign students
Notify TSA when a foreign applicant requests training
Submit to TSA a photo of the foreign applicant after he or she first
arrives for training
For recurrent training, the following must also be submitted to TSA:
Foreign applicant's full name
TSA/DOJ identification number
Copy of foreign applicant's current, unexpired passport and visa
Training details
Photo of the foreign applicant after he or she first arrives for
training
Retain applicant information and TSA approval records for five years.
The records are subject to TSA audit.
Immediately terminate a foreign applicant's training if informed by
TSA the applicant poses a threat to aviation or national security.
Ground school and demonstration flights are exempt from the rule and
recurrent training is exempt from the fingerprints requirement.
Flight schools and freelance flight instructors, regardless of whether
they are training foreign students, must provide initial and annual
recurrent "security awareness training" for each flight school
employee that has a direct contact with a flight school student
(regardless of citizenship or nationality).
Flight school employees must receive the initial security awareness
training by January 18, 2005. Employees hired after January 18, 2005
must receive the training within 60 days of being hired.
Schools must maintain a record of such training for one year after the
employee leaves the school. Again, these records are subject to TSA
and FAA audit.
TSA's initial online security awareness training program will be
available on October 30, 2004 at www.tsa.gov.
Flight schools, including freelance flight instructors, that fail to
comply with the rule's requirements may be subject to enforcement
action.

This is the place to start to figure out how to work through
the new TSA regs for instructors with foreign pilots.

http://www.faasafety.gov/notices/200...le_9-27-04.doc




--

Peter D. Brown
http://home.gci.net/~pdb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akmtnsoaring/

In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

I also carry a government-issued photo ID (my Calif. State driver's
license) on all flights, as required by 67 Fed. Reg. 65857 (October 28,2002).



"According to FAA Administrator Marion Blakey, FAA expects the most
commonly used photo ID will be a valid driver's license issued by a U.S.
state, the District of Columbia, or a U.S. territory or possession.
Other suitable forms of identification under the new rules include
a valid federal or state ID card, a U.S. Armed Forces' ID, credentials
that authorize access to airport secure areas, or other identification
that the FAA accepts."

When I train pilots, since I don't normally carry a photocopier with me,
I will use a small digital camera to make a "copy" of their
pilot license and appropriate photo ID. Yes it is a headache to then
ensure the digital picture I took is somewhere I can find it for 5 years.
But this is the best I can do.

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.
Strawberry Aviation in Watsonville, CA, USA has lost a great deal of
business post 9/11 and expects to see worse. Hiro is the chief CFI there
and he has specialized in training Japanese pilots in the USA (they
fly from Japan to get the training, since it is so much cheaper).
I feel bad for him; he's providing a very worthwhile service.

For "rides" I'm not concerned, since these don't normally involve
the ridee touching the controls anyway.

On the other hand, student pilots coming out for the first day
(walk-ins) are a real challenge, since it is very unlikely
they will have citizen/nationality proof with them. And just like
car sales, I always feel I want to get them started, in a plane,
TODAY. This is definitely a "hassle" for them, and a business loss for me.


P.S. Does the license not apply because I'm not a "Federal employee?"
I'm gonna yawn at this nuance. If the FAA issued a license with
nationality info, and then tells me I shouldn't have relied upon that
for information, then I'm guessing there will be FAA employees with
more tempting necks on the chopping block than mine.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.

...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.


Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.


...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.



Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

And why not? Some of them will buy and fly US aircraft, other folks will
call them tourists.


A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

But if the requirements are useless? That stuff shouldn't happen.


Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.

Lighten up - they aren't being trained in Airbuses. It's Boeings and
Cessnas! "Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign
airlines" is a good thing if their airlines buy Boeing airplanes. There
are many Japanese pilots trained at Moses Lake, Washington (state), in
the 747s they are buying. I don't mind dodging these guys as I fly my
glider past the airport there.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Jack wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

Those who train foriegn pilots are worst hit.


...training Japanese pilots in the USA...is so much cheaper.



Perhaps it is not necessarily in the best interests of the US that
Japanese or other foreigners find cheap aviation training here.

A particular business is affected negatively by necessary security
requirements? So sorry, but stuff happens.

Strengthening the competitive capabilities of foreign airlines or
enhancing the careers of their employees doesn't seem like something we
should be doing.


Jack
Scuse me while I shoot myself in the other foot...

The political hoopla and nationalistic fervour over in the USA is amusing from a
distance - clearly freedom is just a nice idea on a piece of paper.

Simple economics by the way here - Mike Beachyhead in Cape Town runs one of two
heavy jet test pilot schools in the world. He can't keep up at present , you can
guess why. Pilot follows a very simple procedure to present credentials. Flies
into Cape Town international - taxis right past the row of black painted
military hardware. Clears customs and goes flying. Costs a hell of a lot less
than in the USA, weather is generally predictable, location is a lot nicer than
the US alternative and he never gets the third degree "we dont trust foreigners"
treatment. Ditto for the other flying schools.

On the gliding front - Europeans find they can fly in, have two weeks of family
holiday and have a soaring safari, for less than the cost of a week in
{substitute any popular European resort}

All I can see from all this red tape and hypocrisy is a weakening of the
training institutions and increasing costs. Some will exit the business, a lot
of folk will decide the effort is not worth it and give up, or never take up
flying, and the country will be poorer for it. I suppose the current incumbents
at FAA will have less real work to do into the bargain, for a while. But with
decreasing activity will come decreasing budgets (you can't beat the security
drum forever) Some years ago there was no question about what country led the
world in general aviation, light aircraft manufacture, was home to the EAA etc.
Now, the options are much wider, and cheaper, and often better in places like
Poland, and Slovenia and even tiny economies like New Zealand and South Africa.
A bit sad really.

I happen to be a "resident alien" -i.e. green card holder rather than
a Citizen. I live here and have held a US pilot certificate for many
years both Glider and SEL.

There are a lot of people like myself who call this country home who
will have to jump through hoops just to get a BFR (I don't work for an
airline so doesn't appear to qualify as Category 4), or if we wanted
to work on a new rating, perhaps simply if I were to show up at a
glider operation for a couple of days and wanted a "check out" - that
would be a new training event at a new flight school - OK that'll be
$130, a repeat investigation and sorry sir you can't get a checkout
until we get TSA approval. Does that make any sense?, does that add
to flight safety or rather detract from it by discouraging additional
training?

As I interpret the ruling this is not a 1 time vetting of the person,
this is an approval process for each new type of "training" that the
"alien" seeks.

Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
of regulation.

If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
identity, but not with taking flight lessons.

Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
pre-WWII Germany felt.

-Tom

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
Stupid Populace

(h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
her:
(i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
(ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
raised
seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
individual;
(v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
or
INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
issued
by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
picture identification of the individual; or
(vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
Federal
agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
picture identification.


(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:416dab5f$1@darkstar...
In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.
... etc ...