A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

60 Minutes 4/17



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 18th 05, 07:49 PM
Newps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Dan Luke wrote:



I guess it would be nice if prime ribeye steaks were a dollar a pound, too,
until all the beef businesses collapsed.



Then we could buy those mad cows from Alberta.
  #2  
Old April 19th 05, 12:15 AM
aluckyguess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If there was enough volume they could build the plane for less than 50k. It
would replace all the old Piper, Cessna and Beech 2 and 4 seat aircraft.
They sell new cars for way less and there looks to be more work in a new car
than a small plane.
I think if they could sell 1000 a month you could build it for under 50k or
close to it. The only thing I don't know is what the insurance would cost.
I know if Lycoming had a quote come in for 12000 IO 360 engines the price
would drop quite a bit.
You can buy a brand new LS6 corvette engine for 5000.00 that tells me they
are building it for around 1500.

Just my 2 cents.
"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"aluckyguess" wrote:
It would be nice if Piper sold its Cherokee 180 for around 50k


Nice for whom? Certainly not for the insane New Piper executive who
approved
such an idea. That would be a lot less than NP's direct cost to build the
airplanes (if they did still build the 180, that is), never mind any
overhead
and profit.

I guess it would be nice if prime ribeye steaks were a dollar a pound,
too,
until all the beef businesses collapsed.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM




  #3  
Old April 19th 05, 07:29 AM
Highflyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"aluckyguess" wrote in message
...
snip
The only thing I don't know is what the insurance would cost.
I know if Lycoming had a quote come in for 12000 IO 360 engines the price
would drop quite a bit.
You can buy a brand new LS6 corvette engine for 5000.00 that tells me they
are building it for around 1500.


Actually if Lycoming had an order for 12000 IO360 engines from one customer
the price would probably go up and the quality would go down. Lycoming sold
all of their machinery and has all of their parts made outside by
subcontractors. Each subcontractor has a significant "learning curve"
coming up to speed. ( See the court case that Lycoming lost recently about
crankshaft specifications and manufacturing procedures ) They would be
unable to get enough parts at any price to assemble them in a reasonable
time. ( NOTE: this is an opinion based on my knowledge of the aircraft
engine business. )

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )




  #4  
Old April 19th 05, 02:05 PM
Dan Luke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"aluckyguess" wrote:
If there was enough volume they could build the plane for less than 50k. It
would replace all the old Piper, Cessna and Beech 2 and 4 seat aircraft.
They sell new cars for way less and there looks to be more work in a new

car
than a small plane.


You have confused the auto business with the airplane business. Auto
manufacturing allows economies of scale unatainable by aircraft mfg. And
remember, auto makers break even or lose money on many of their models.

I think if they could sell 1000 a month you could build it for under 50k or
close to it.


And if frogs had wings...

Therein lies the main weakness in your argument. You imagine there is a vast
pool of pent-up demand. Do you believe there are buyers for 1,000 Cherokee
180s/month? How about after the first, second years? Remember, over the 40
year production history of all models of the Cessna 172/175, only 43,000 have
been built. That's a long way from 1,000/mo.

[snip]

I know if Lycoming had a quote come in for 12000 IO 360 engines the price
would drop quite a bit.


Maybe not, because they would still build them the same way at first.
Mobilization costs to handle the increased volume would have to be added to
the margin made on each engine. The same thing goes for New Piper: if they
suddenly had a backlog of 12,000 airplanes, they'd have to build new
factories and so would all their suppliers. It would take years to reach the
capacity to meet that demand efficiently. And here's the rub: by the time
they had all this capacity was built, practically everyone who wanted a new
180 would have one, and there wouldn't be enough new customers to pay off the
enormous debt NP (and its suppliers) would have after they built all those
factories.

You can buy a brand new LS6 corvette engine for 5000.00 that tells me they
are building it for around 1500.


Why does it tell you that? And what do you reckon the liability cost
component of an LS6 is compared to a Lyc. O-360?
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM


  #5  
Old April 19th 05, 11:32 PM
John Galban
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


aluckyguess wrote:
If there was enough volume they could build the plane for less than

50k. It
would replace all the old Piper, Cessna and Beech 2 and 4 seat

aircraft.
They sell new cars for way less and there looks to be more work in a

new car
than a small plane.


If the moon were made of green cheese, astronauts wouldn't need
Cheez Whiz. Simply put, there is not a market for the amount of new
planes you envision. New cars models are sold in the hundreds of
thousands per year. At that volume, manufacturers can afford to buy
robots to automate most of the work. Common parts can be interchanged
and bought very cheaply in large quantities. At GA volumes, planes
still have to be built by hand, much the way they've always been built.
That's where the cost of a plane skyrockets. I've visited the new
Cessna plant. It looks more like a huge hanger with hundreds of
homebuilders than an actual factory.

As far as there being more work involved building a new car than a
plane, all I can say is that you've obviously never built a plane
before.

I think if they could sell 1000 a month you could build it for under

50k or
close to it. The only thing I don't know is what the insurance would

cost.
I know if Lycoming had a quote come in for 12000 IO 360 engines the

price
would drop quite a bit.


Even at 1000 a month, you still can't come close to the economies of
scale that are common to the auto industry. Therefore, you shouldn't
realistically expect the price to come close either.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

  #6  
Old April 18th 05, 10:33 PM
Jimbob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:03:01 -0700, "aluckyguess" wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:05:19 GMT, Jimbob
wrote in ::



It will never have the speed of a Glassair. I just don't think that is
possible.
I thought at one time everyone should fly then I realized it is already
crowded up there and it would suck.
It would be nice if Piper sold its Cherokee 180 for around 50k then most
everyday pilots could have a new plane. This would be economical carry an
average 2 person family and still get you their in a decent time.



Who needs Piper. The new Light Sport's have reasonable performance
and are selling for about 70K. Less range and slightly less speed but
the price is right.

Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org
  #7  
Old April 19th 05, 01:21 AM
Kyle Boatright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jimbob" wrote in message
...
snip




Who needs Piper. The new Light Sport's have reasonable performance
and are selling for about 70K. Less range and slightly less speed but
the price is right.

Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org


To some extent, Piper sells transportation. Light Sport aircraft will never
be in the same transportation as aircraft that have 2x the mass (good in
turbulence and helps with stability), higher speed, IFR ability, etc.
Performance and capability wise, LSA's are the equivalent of the C-152
without the ability to be upgraded to IFR...

If you're looking for a 100, maybe 120 mph airplane that carries 2 people,
you can get a nice Ercoupe or C-150 for under $20k...

KB


  #8  
Old April 19th 05, 03:25 AM
Jimbob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:21:17 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:



To some extent, Piper sells transportation. Light Sport aircraft will never
be in the same transportation as aircraft that have 2x the mass (good in
turbulence and helps with stability), higher speed, IFR ability, etc.
Performance and capability wise, LSA's are the equivalent of the C-152
without the ability to be upgraded to IFR...

If you're looking for a 100, maybe 120 mph airplane that carries 2 people,
you can get a nice Ercoupe or C-150 for under $20k...

KB


To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing prevent an LSA from
becoming IFR certified. The pilot must have a private rating to take
advantage of this. However, if that pilot was operating under the
sportpilot rule, they can't fly IFR.

The weight issue is a valid argument. On the plus side, you are
looking at a new aircraft vs. 30yo.

I don't expect LSA to replace mooneys or lancairs, but I can see a
segment of the population that could consider it for the
transportation roles that c-152 performance class aircraft are used
for.




Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org
  #9  
Old April 19th 05, 02:16 AM
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:03:01 -0700, "aluckyguess" wrote in
::

It will never have the speed of a Glassair.


For the CarterCopter to achieve the speed of a Glassair, would require
considerable power I believe. There's also the stability issue of the
rotor disk in the relative wind at high speed to address. It would
take a cleaver fellow in deed to successfully meet Carter's goals.
But I wouldn't characterize them as impossible.




  #10  
Old April 21st 05, 07:23 PM
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:16:01 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote in ::

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:03:01 -0700, "aluckyguess" wrote in
::

It will never have the speed of a Glassair.


For the CarterCopter to achieve the speed of a Glassair, would require
considerable power I believe. There's also the stability issue of the
rotor disk in the relative wind at high speed to address. It would
take a cleaver fellow in deed to successfully meet Carter's goals.
But I wouldn't characterize them as impossible.



Here's some more information about the subject TV broadcast:



-------------------------------------------------------------------
AVflash Volume 11, Number 16b -- April 21, 2005

-------------------------------------------------------------------

YOUR NEXT CAR COULD BE AN AIRCRAFT...
Flying cars are back in the news this week, thanks to Nevada
inventor Woody Norris, who is working on an ultralight helicopter
called the AirScooter. Norris has won a prestigious inventors'
award -- for his work in acoustics, not aviation -- and he and his
flying machine were featured in Sunday night's "60 Minutes" show
on CBS. Norris has developed a new four-stroke engine for his
AirScooter, which has two counter-rotating rotors, and he says it
is stable and easy to control. A video clip at his Web site shows
the single-seat AirScooter taking off vertically, maneuvering just
a few feet above the ground and returning to its launch site. An
unmanned version is also in the works. Norris says AirScooters
will be available for sale later this year at $50,000 apiece.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#189613


60 Minutes personality, Ed Bradley, was able to get the AirScooter*
undercontrol in a few minutes of practice. This looks like the one to
watch in the short term.


...DEEP POCKETS COULD MAKE THE DIFFERENCE
"60 Minutes" also looked at the CarterCopter and the Moller
SkyCar. The CarterCopter prototype has been flying off and on for
a few years, but was sidelined by a wheels-up landing and then by
an in-flight fire. SkyCar inventor Paul Moller says his futuristic
vehicle will fly like a "magic carpet," but so far it has
test-flown only while tethered to a crane. But it probably comes
closest to the Jetson-style flying car that people imagine the
future should bring. Michael Kanellos, of CNET News, speculated
last week that flying cars could be the next thing to attract the
attention -- and the assets -- of the high-tech billionaires and
entrepreneurs who have been funding much of the new space
industry.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#189614


Perhaps these folks should be contacted regarding the latest
developments in this area of aviation:
http://www.venturewire.com/Default.aspx


* http://www.airscooter.com/pages/airscooter_main.htm
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OK, I'm off... Simon Robbins Rotorcraft 15 March 14th 05 12:44 AM
Last night on 60 minutes: Bush used influence to avoid Nam ArtKramr Military Aviation 7 September 10th 04 01:20 AM
Russian jets crash within minutes of each other C J Campbell Piloting 16 August 28th 04 11:52 PM
Book review: "Two Minutes Over Baghdad, 1981" Mike Yared Military Aviation 2 September 21st 03 02:45 PM
Precession of 10 degrees in 10 minutes too much? Jay Moreland Instrument Flight Rules 11 August 15th 03 01:05 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.