Garmin Behind the Curve on WAAS GPS VNAV Approaches

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
news:6823bf21e87c61799d150096f329071b@TeraNews...
| Garmin's website now says they are "committed" to providing WAAS GPS
| approach capability for the 400/500 series by the "end of 2004."
|
| UPSAT's site states that their CNX-80 is WAAS approved now but I cannot
find
| an explicit statement that it supports WAAS approaches at this point.
|

UPS told us that the CNX-80 database needs an upgrade before you can do WAAS
approaches and has promised that it has already been release and that we
should get it soon.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
news:6823bf21e87c61799d150096f329071b@TeraNews...
| Garmin's website now says they are "committed" to providing WAAS GPS
| approach capability for the 400/500 series by the "end of 2004."
|
| UPSAT's site states that their CNX-80 is WAAS approved now but I cannot
find
| an explicit statement that it supports WAAS approaches at this point.
|

UPS told us that the CNX-80 database needs an upgrade before you can do WAAS
approaches and has promised that it has already been release and that we
should get it soon.

Howdy!

1. WAAS is turned on but only "approved operators with approved
equipment" may do the LNAV/LPV/WAAS/GPS Precision Approaches.
2. The CNX80 is ONLY approved equipment for NON-PRECISION GPS
Approaches.
3. The CNX80 is NOT approved for PRECISION GPS Approaches
(RNAV/VNAV/etc) and will not be for several months to come.
4. GARMIN's 530/430 equipment is only approved for NON-PRECISION GPS
Approaches.
5. GARMIN's 530/430 equipment may or may not beat UPSAT's CNX80 in the
quest for PRECISION GPS Approach Approval.
6. IFR Enroute, Terminal, and Oceanic IFR-Approved GPS units with an
IFR-Approved installation AND CURRENT database may be used as a
substitute for DME in the U.S. (Consider that the rest of the world
still thinks NDBs are a pretty neat idea and the U.S. DOD OWNS and
OPERATES GPS. Of course the rest of the world still has their heads up
their arses when it comes to GPS, they didn't think of it first, and a
valid concern about the US military's ability to turn off GPS.)

I don't think GARMIN has missed the boat at all. Their delay in
implementing WAAS upgrades is deliberate to allow the FAA to turn on
WAAS all over the country and not just the 16 Approaches that could be
flown with GPS/WAAS equipment. WAAS and LAAS are not fully
operational, and GARMIN wants to see which system will win, if not
both, and GARMIN's upgrade will handle the appropriate system. This is
why GARMIN is implementing Terrain and TAWS this year, and WAAS next
year. At this time, terrain is a software upgrade, TAWS is a hardware
upgrade, and that will probably change before GARMIN ships the units.
GARMIN is planning for WAAS to be a software upgrade. The difference?
Software upgrades can be done at a dealer.

UPSAT's CNX80's WAAS-Enabled GPS is a bunch of marketing hype until
such time that the FAA allows Precision GPS approaches. Aloft, a
difference of 1' (WAAS) versus 3' (GPS) doesn't make a critical
difference in avoiding terrain or other obstacles. Being 200' over the
end of the runway, 1 foot versus 3 feet might make a critical
difference, hence the extended wait for GPS Precision Approaches.

The FAA's slowness in implementing WAAS approaches and approvals might
be deliberate due to the number of airspace and altitude busts by
pilots with the fancy GPS units on board. The FAA may be waiting for
the pilot community to get themselves trained on these GPS units
before certifying the system as safe for the general aviation pilots.

Where is my information from? The technical standard orders for
precision and non-precision GPS units, several days at the Aircraft
Electronics Association Convention, digging through the pounds of
manuals and installation manuals for the various units, and from the
mouths of the engineers and techs themselves at GARMIN, UPSAT, and L3.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
www.slantgolf.com (in progress)

(Jedi Nein) wrote in message . com...

Howdy!

GARMIN is planning for WAAS to be a software upgrade. The difference?
Software upgrades can be done at a dealer.

Um, is the terrain stuff going to be a processor upgrade then?

I thought part of the issue w/ the Garmin units was that they
update 3x at an interval where FAA's WAAS spec requires 5x,
and Garmin was unsuccessful at lobbying the FAA to decrease
the time interval. Doesn't sound like a software issue to me
but whatdoIknow.

OTOH, if they take care of the hardware now, they can handle
WAAS as a software upgrade later.

UPSAT's CNX80's WAAS-Enabled GPS is a bunch of marketing hype until
such time that the FAA allows Precision GPS approaches. Aloft, a
difference of 1' (WAAS) versus 3' (GPS) doesn't make a critical
difference in avoiding terrain or other obstacles.

Hmmm, somehow I thought the difference in precision was greater
than that.

The FAA's slowness in implementing WAAS approaches and approvals might
be deliberate due to the number of airspace and altitude busts by
pilots with the fancy GPS units on board. The FAA may be waiting for
the pilot community to get themselves trained on these GPS units
before certifying the system as safe for the general aviation pilots.

Documentation on said number of airspace and altitude busts? As
far as I know, if one does bust altitude or airspace, no one keeps
track of what sort of GPS one had on board.

Cheers,
Sydney

My own 5 euro cents:

Garmin missed the boat on one "minor" point with both the GNS430 and
the GNS530... for something that is purportedly a "fully integrated
comm and navigation system" where is the DME? (Required for Airways
certification). GPS derrived distances are not DME, and in Europe are
not acceptable as a substitute. As a result, a VERY nice panel with a
couple of GNS530 is still not airways approved unless there is a DME
(doesn't necessarily have to be slaved), and hence another 1 radio
unit (height) taken up on the panel. If I'm not mistaken, the UPS kit
has both DME and transponder integrated... I personally prefer the
garmin kit though. Could the engineers at Garmin catch up with
everyone else please? /tongue in cheek

Leland
'71 PA28R-200




On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:48:57 -0400, John Mireley
wrote:

Richard Kaplan wrote:
Garmin's website now says they are "committed" to providing WAAS GPS
approach capability for the 400/500 series by the "end of 2004."

UPSAT's site states that their CNX-80 is WAAS approved now but I cannot find
an explicit statement that it supports WAAS approaches at this point.

Does anyone know for sure if the CNX-80 supports WAAS GPS approaches *now*?

In any event, can Garmin really be that far behind the curve as to plan WAAS
only fo rthe "end of 2004"? This seems very much atypical for Garmin and
almost an embarrassment for them.



Garmin lobbied the FAA on the final specs for WAAS so their current
processors could meet the spec. They lost. They now have to replace
the processors in order to meet the spec. I think the issue was that
they could get 3 updates per second and the spec was for 5. This is
from my memory of an FAA session at the Great Lakes Aviation Conference
back in January.

The CNX80 does not have either transponder or DME. It has the ability to
control a remote transponder (set the code). It also has the ability to
"tune" a separate DME like any other NAV radio (including the 430/530 of
course).

Mike
MU-2


"Leland Vandervort" wrote
in message ...

My own 5 euro cents:

Garmin missed the boat on one "minor" point with both the GNS430 and
the GNS530... for something that is purportedly a "fully integrated
comm and navigation system" where is the DME? (Required for Airways
certification). GPS derrived distances are not DME, and in Europe are
not acceptable as a substitute. As a result, a VERY nice panel with a
couple of GNS530 is still not airways approved unless there is a DME
(doesn't necessarily have to be slaved), and hence another 1 radio
unit (height) taken up on the panel. If I'm not mistaken, the UPS kit
has both DME and transponder integrated... I personally prefer the
garmin kit though. Could the engineers at Garmin catch up with
everyone else please? /tongue in cheek

Leland
'71 PA28R-200




On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:48:57 -0400, John Mireley
wrote:

Richard Kaplan wrote:
Garmin's website now says they are "committed" to providing WAAS GPS
approach capability for the 400/500 series by the "end of 2004."

UPSAT's site states that their CNX-80 is WAAS approved now but I cannot
find
an explicit statement that it supports WAAS approaches at this point.

Does anyone know for sure if the CNX-80 supports WAAS GPS approaches
*now*?

In any event, can Garmin really be that far behind the curve as to plan
WAAS
only fo rthe "end of 2004"? This seems very much atypical for Garmin
and
almost an embarrassment for them.



Garmin lobbied the FAA on the final specs for WAAS so their current
processors could meet the spec. They lost. They now have to replace
the processors in order to meet the spec. I think the issue was that
they could get 3 updates per second and the spec was for 5. This is
from my memory of an FAA session at the Great Lakes Aviation Conference
back in January.

Leland Vandervort wrote:

My own 5 euro cents:

Garmin missed the boat on one "minor" point with both the GNS430 and
the GNS530... for something that is purportedly a "fully integrated
comm and navigation system" where is the DME? (Required for Airways
certification). GPS derrived distances are not DME, and in Europe are
not acceptable as a substitute. As a result, a VERY nice panel with a
couple of GNS530 is still not airways approved unless there is a DME
(doesn't necessarily have to be slaved), and hence another 1 radio
unit (height) taken up on the panel. If I'm not mistaken, the UPS kit
has both DME and transponder integrated... I personally prefer the
garmin kit though. Could the engineers at Garmin catch up with
everyone else please? /tongue in cheek

Leland
'71 PA28R-200

Who cares what Europe does. DME is entirely redundant to GPS.

--
For most men, true happiness can only be achieved with a woman.
Also for most men, true happiness can only be achieved without a woman.
Sharp minds have noted that these two rules tend to conflict.....

Slightly off topic, but interesting in this context:

The latest edition of the FAA's SatNav News contains a graphic of
projections for various navaids through 2020. It shows the current number of
VORs (1033) diminishing to about 500 beginning in 2010; however, the listing
for VOR-DME/VORTAC shows an increase from 878 to more than 930. TACAN shows
no change from 2002 through 2020. Long range NDBs are retained in Alaska and
coastal. ILS Cat I and LOC approaches diminish from 1158 to about 546, while
the number of Cat III ILSs increases slightly.

GPS is strong throughout...WAAS comes up in 2003 and LAAS Cat 1 in 2005.

The decision on the fate of Loran is still up in the air.

Bob Gardner

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
news:6823bf21e87c61799d150096f329071b@TeraNews...
Garmin's website now says they are "committed" to providing WAAS GPS
approach capability for the 400/500 series by the "end of 2004."

UPSAT's site states that their CNX-80 is WAAS approved now but I cannot
find
an explicit statement that it supports WAAS approaches at this point.

Does anyone know for sure if the CNX-80 supports WAAS GPS approaches
*now*?

In any event, can Garmin really be that far behind the curve as to plan
WAAS
only fo rthe "end of 2004"? This seems very much atypical for Garmin and
almost an embarrassment for them.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com