When to acknowledge ATC

In article ,
"Peter Duniho" wrote:

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
[...]
There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.

Funny. I flew KOAK / KMRY yesterday IFR on a routing that took me deep
into KSFO's Class B airspace and never *once* heard that magic phrase
"Cleared into Class Bravo..."

Not that the previous poster is correct in what he says, but how does your
IFR flight relate to his claim regarding VFR flight?

You snipped the part where he claimed that one had to hear the magic
phrase under all circumstances. I pointed out that that simply wasn't
true.

("Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:"

Which was followed up by:

The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.

Which was illustrated by my posting.

Hamish

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Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. com...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?


I'd have been happier if you had tried to learn something.

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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. com...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?


I'd have been happier if you had tried to learn something.

Yeah.. I've learned not to be assertive around you. Thanks for
making someone who is wanting to put his heart into this career feel
diswayed. Perhaps I'll be one less controller to replace you from
working harder than you should, or even better, thanks for putting more
burden on yourself. Don't complain if the government requires you to
stay on until you're 80, because with that attitude of yours, no-one
will love working under you. Check yourself.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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On Mon, 09 May 2005 18:57:34 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto
wrote in
::

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Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?

BL.


From the tone of your response it seems that you are taking the
corrective comments you received as a personal attack rather than
informative comment. That probably isn't the best sort of
personality/demeanor for a controller to possess.

If you were truly a candidate to become an Air Traffic Controller, you
would have found the pertinent section(s) in FAA Order 7110.65 and
discovered that it fails to mandate reading back clearances. But you
took the comments as personal insults rather than objective
information and got your feelings hurt. If you're going to be a
controller, you've got to cool and objective. Work on it.

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Larry Dighera wrote:

From the tone of your response it seems that you are taking the
corrective comments you received as a personal attack rather than
informative comment. That probably isn't the best sort of
personality/demeanor for a controller to possess.

If you were truly a candidate to become an Air Traffic Controller, you
would have found the pertinent section(s) in FAA Order 7110.65 and
discovered that it fails to mandate reading back clearances. But you
took the comments as personal insults rather than objective
information and got your feelings hurt. If you're going to be a
controller, you've got to cool and objective. Work on it.


I agree. I did take comments here as insulting. But when you
have someone here telling you that you're ignorant, it's rather hard
not to take that as insulting. Double that coming from a controller. It
really makes you want to rethink entering the field if a potential
coworker, who should be helping you on it (albeit, he is helping) while
not berating you with the next word out of his mouth. I admitted that I
was wrong, and that you're right, the .65P doesn't mandate reading back
clearances. But on the other hand, I deserve more respect than being
insulted, let alone more respect for admitting that I was wrong.

But you're right. I should, and will work on it.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.

No need to crawl into a hole. I'm not sure about "standing up for
what you learned" is, because if someone taught you something that
wasn't right, you shouldn't automatically "stand up" for it.

In ATC, you'll be personally responsible for knowing the rules to the
letter, regardless of what someone told you. If the day comes when an
operational error is due to a misunderstanding of a rule or reg,
"that's the way I learned it" will probably not go over very well.
Best to learn that part sooner rather than later. It will be a fact of
life in your chosen career.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
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Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...


Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?

I'm actually indifferent. :-)

There are very good reasons to read back most clearances. The main
reason is to ensure that I got it right. However, the point was that it
isn't required, it is, however, a good practice. Lots of things that
aren't required are still good practice.


Matt

In article ,
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

This is Usenet. The idea of everybody here being happy is kinda funny...
*someone* will find fault with your new position, now :-).

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet.

Well, don't do *that*.... Basically, if all you'd done was "respond with
something I was taught by my instructors", and then thought a little and
researched a lot about the issue when virtually everyone here pointed
out you were wrong (and why), probably none of this would have happened.
But you started questioning people's credentials and giving out abuse --
and ended up maybe getting rather more than you gave, for sure, but your
attitude really didn't help. And it probably won't help with the ATC
job, either....

Hamish

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Hamish Reid wrote:
In article ,
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

This is Usenet. The idea of everybody here being happy is kinda funny...
*someone* will find fault with your new position, now :-).

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet.

Well, don't do *that*.... Basically, if all you'd done was "respond with
something I was taught by my instructors", and then thought a little and
researched a lot about the issue when virtually everyone here pointed
out you were wrong (and why), probably none of this would have happened.
But you started questioning people's credentials and giving out abuse --
and ended up maybe getting rather more than you gave, for sure, but your
attitude really didn't help. And it probably won't help with the ATC
job, either....

As for the job, it's a learning curve, and a steep one. But I'm
willing to learn it, and do my best in it. If they tell me that I'm not
cut out for it, I'll do something else. But I'll be satisfied in
knowing that I did my best, and was judged for what I did, not who I
am.

Attitudes will fall away, when experience is built. I admit I'm
young and green about it, but that will change.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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