Have you seen the new SSA 'Where to fly' web-site?

OK- Please answer my question- How would SSA get reliable information
on these non affiliated organizations?
BTW at dinner last nite , my director indicated there is consideration
for some kind of listing for these kinds of organizations- possible a
contact phone # or such. If this comes to pass, the organization would
still have to provide info to SSA.
And yes, my opinion is that these folk do make a bad business decision
by not having at least a minimal SSA presence, in addition to not
supporting an organization that works hard to ensure they can continue
to operate.
I am admittedly pretty close to a lot of what is being done in SSA ,
but can tell you that the view that the SSA doesn't see promoting and
fostering the sport as #1 is flat wrong.
UH

wrote:
OK- Please answer my question- How would SSA get reliable information
on these non affiliated organizations?

I would be happy to provide the SSA with accurate contact info for the
operations I know about.

BTW at dinner last nite , my director indicated there is consideration
for some kind of listing for these kinds of organizations- possible a
contact phone # or such. If this comes to pass, the organization would
still have to provide info to SSA.
And yes, my opinion is that these folk do make a bad business decision
by not having at least a minimal SSA presence, in addition to not
supporting an organization that works hard to ensure they can continue
to operate.

It may be a bad business decision, but soaring pilots (and potential
pilots) are the ones who are punished when they don't learn of all
soaring operations.

I am admittedly pretty close to a lot of what is being done in SSA ,
but can tell you that the view that the SSA doesn't see promoting and
fostering the sport as #1 is flat wrong.
UH

I think it's great! I called up the
interactive map and clicked on the state
of California, and I found
Soar Minden!

Finally, despite what Al says,
it's plaintively clear that Minden, CA is
an SSA soaring gliderport.

;P

At 20:30 25 May 2005, Greg Arnold wrote:
wrote:
OK- Please answer my question- How would SSA get reliable
information
on these non affiliated organizations?

I would be happy to provide the SSA with accurate contact
info for the
operations I know about.

BTW at dinner last nite , my director indicated there
is consideration
for some kind of listing for these kinds of organizations-
possible a


contact phone # or such. If this comes to pass, the
organization would
still have to provide info to SSA.
And yes, my opinion is that these folk do make a
bad business decision
by not having at least a minimal SSA presence, in
addition to not
supporting an organization that works hard to ensure
they can continue
to operate.

It may be a bad business decision, but soaring pilots
(and potential
pilots) are the ones who are punished when they don't
learn of all
soaring operations.

I am admittedly pretty close to a lot of what is being
done in SSA ,
but can tell you that the view that the SSA doesn't
see promoting and
fostering the sport as #1 is flat wrong.
UH



Mark J. Boyd

Operators have the option to cross post to other states. The Reno area
operators tend to cater to a large CA crowd, so this makes sense.

It would be nice to be a ble to select a radius, then either click on
the map, or enter a zip code.

-Tom

Contact Doug Easton with your suggestion and I'm sure he would give it
some thought.
UH

5Z wrote:

Operators have the option to cross post to other states. The Reno area
operators tend to cater to a large CA crowd, so this makes sense.

It would be nice to be a ble to select a radius, then either click on
the map, or enter a zip code.

-Tom
There appear to be some borderline area captures. Click on Wyoming, for
example. Owl Canyon, Driggs, and Rapid City pop-up, but not Bozeman. So
there is some 'distance value' at work. Wyoming has no organized SSA
soaring organizations. Note also that North Dakota and Louisiana are
dimmed. Apparently both no SSA organizations and the nearest are beyond
the 'distance value'. This 'distance value' can probably be adjusted if
deemed necessary.

Frank Whiteley

Jack wrote:

Greg Arnold wrote:

So the SSA's decision to include or not on the webpage really is a
safety decision, and the SSA makes that safety decision on the basis of
whether the operation has enough sense to affiliate with the SSA?

Humor- and patience-deprived today are we, Greg?

I believe there are any number of good reasons -- from the economic, to
the practical, to the political. I wonder why you are so adamantly opposed
to the current revitalization of the SSA and the choices of it's
leadership that you can't give it a reasonable time to work out?

Huge changes, with limited resources, are afoot and the SSA needs to
apologize to no one for the progress we are currently making and that
which we can see not far off. Anything which shores up the current base is
a good choice.

There are those, both here and in the wider soaring community, that will
never get on board with the SSA, no matter what its future holds -- for
reasons I consider irrational, but that's just part of human nature.
Whether they are individuals, or clubs, or commercial operations, their
inability or unwillingness to be part of the solution doesn't really make
them part of the problem -- it just leaves them increasingly nowhere as
the SSA's momentum increases. Those less obtuse will, eventually, see the
light. The SSA would be doing its current and future membership no favors
if it legitimized the rest by including them.


Jack
In several cases, those not having an SSA affiliation are also missing from
the local phone/yellow pages directory (regional coverage is very
expensive), have no web presence (cheap), and are hard to find or contact.
Indeed, some seem reluctant. Although we seem to agree that self promotion
and soaring promotion are both important as there is a regular level of
churn in the participants in this activity, the SSA club/chapter survey
revealed that there are a number of groups that are very nervous or fearful
of any significant influx of members or business. (We have a new
commercial tow service in our state that would rather charge high prices
for 10 glider pilots than entertain 25-30 at market prices. But that's a
different issue.) Generally, this is related to operational limitations of
not enough instructors, gliders, or tow pilots. Other clubs suffer from
provincialism. Substantial growth is just not on their map at the present
time. Let's be sure of our assumptions are the right ones before we start
complaining. Let's also hear directly from the leaders of those
non-affiliated groups, not their advocates. Too much gets lost in
translation. IMVHO, this should start at the SSA state governor level.
That being said, the governance links are behind the member door. That
keeps my e-mail from being spammed to death by bots, but the web site
probably needs a way to contact us. Perhaps a page that promotes soaring
by directing group or individual inquiries to the appropriate governor by
state.

In many ways, SSA functions as the chamber of commerce of soaring. Like any
chamber, you will not get any notice on their website, recognition for your
efforts in the community, or rights of participation without paying your
dues. Chambers are both promotional and representative and may be
advocates, though not politically active if they are 501c(3) incorporated,
as most are. The model is a good one to consider and the organization must
continuously add value to membership, or it will wither and die. EAA is
similar, though from a different lineage. One aspect of EAA membership
(often referred to as so much cheaper than SSA) is that there are special
interest areas that add to the incremental cost, including special
periodicals for specialty areas. EAA memberships can cost more than SSA
memberships if you really like Experimenter and Warbirds, for example.
Likewise, it's more than the magazines. Many of us also assign value to
being AOPA members in addition to being SSA members.

Remember, SSA, like a chamber, is a membership organization and at least in
the case of the SSA, it's a represetative membership. There has to be some
value-added to membership and efforts are underway to keep increasing that
value. Shame on the SSA if that process ever again languishes. The
inclusion/exclusion argument is like pulling the 'safety card'. If the SSA
body elects to exclude non-affiliated members, then it's 'not promoting
soaring for the greater good'. Rather I think it's those that stand apart
that may be robbing the SSA of promotional funding. The office, staff, and
daily operations have pretty much fixed costs. The magazine has
incremental costs that may be offset by volume discounts. What would be
the net effect of doubling or tripling the current membership? It could
certainly open the door to possibilities. Doable? Perhaps. There are
nearly three times as many glider ratings listed in my state (~1440) than
the ~530 SSA members.

Frank Whiteley

Louisiana, if my memory serves,
was the only state to have no 1-26s or 2-33s or 2-22s
registered in the state.

Alll of the other states had at least one of these
venerable gliders.

One wonders if this is because of lack of soaring
conditions or if there are other factors (too
much other fun stuff to do).

At 15:30 26 May 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
5Z wrote:

Operators have the option to cross post to other states.
The Reno area
operators tend to cater to a large CA crowd, so this
makes sense.

It would be nice to be a ble to select a radius, then
either click on
the map, or enter a zip code.

-Tom
There appear to be some borderline area captures.
Click on Wyoming, for
example. Owl Canyon, Driggs, and Rapid City pop-up,
but not Bozeman. So
there is some 'distance value' at work. Wyoming has
no organized SSA
soaring organizations. Note also that North Dakota
and Louisiana are
dimmed. Apparently both no SSA organizations and the
nearest are beyond
the 'distance value'. This 'distance value' can probably
be adjusted if
deemed necessary.

Frank Whiteley

Mark J. Boyd

FWIW, the Louisiana State Governor owns an HP-14 and is associated with this
club.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~cprince/ShreveportSoaringClub/

Maybe they are registered off shore.

Frank


M B wrote:

Louisiana, if my memory serves,
was the only state to have no 1-26s or 2-33s or 2-22s
registered in the state.

Alll of the other states had at least one of these
venerable gliders.

One wonders if this is because of lack of soaring
conditions or if there are other factors (too
much other fun stuff to do).

At 15:30 26 May 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
5Z wrote:

Operators have the option to cross post to other states.
The Reno area
operators tend to cater to a large CA crowd, so this
makes sense.

It would be nice to be a ble to select a radius, then
either click on
the map, or enter a zip code.

-Tom
There appear to be some borderline area captures.
Click on Wyoming, for
example. Owl Canyon, Driggs, and Rapid City pop-up,
but not Bozeman. So
there is some 'distance value' at work. Wyoming has
no organized SSA
soaring organizations. Note also that North Dakota
and Louisiana are
dimmed. Apparently both no SSA organizations and the
nearest are beyond
the 'distance value'. This 'distance value' can probably
be adjusted if
deemed necessary.

Frank Whiteley

Mark J. Boyd

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Jack wrote:

Greg Arnold wrote:

So the SSA's decision to include or not on the webpage really is a
safety decision, and the SSA makes that safety decision on the basis of
whether the operation has enough sense to affiliate with the SSA?

Humor- and patience-deprived today are we, Greg?

I believe there are any number of good reasons -- from the economic, to
the practical, to the political. I wonder why you are so adamantly
opposed to the current revitalization of the SSA and the choices of it's
leadership that you can't give it a reasonable time to work out?

Huge changes, with limited resources, are afoot and the SSA needs to
apologize to no one for the progress we are currently making and that
which we can see not far off. Anything which shores up the current base
is a good choice.

There are those, both here and in the wider soaring community, that will
never get on board with the SSA, no matter what its future holds -- for
reasons I consider irrational, but that's just part of human nature.
Whether they are individuals, or clubs, or commercial operations, their
inability or unwillingness to be part of the solution doesn't really make
them part of the problem -- it just leaves them increasingly nowhere as
the SSA's momentum increases. Those less obtuse will, eventually, see the
light. The SSA would be doing its current and future membership no favors
if it legitimized the rest by including them.


Jack
In several cases, those not having an SSA affiliation are also missing
from the local phone/yellow pages directory (regional coverage is very
expensive), have no web presence (cheap), and are hard to find or contact.
Indeed, some seem reluctant. Although we seem to agree that self
promotion and soaring promotion are both important as there is a regular
level of churn in the participants in this activity, the SSA club/chapter
survey revealed that there are a number of groups that are very nervous or
fearful
of any significant influx of members or business. (We have a new
commercial tow service in our state that would rather charge high prices
for 10 glider pilots than entertain 25-30 at market prices. But that's a
different issue.) Generally, this is related to operational limitations
of
not enough instructors, gliders, or tow pilots. Other clubs suffer from
provincialism. Substantial growth is just not on their map at the present
time. Let's be sure of our assumptions are the right ones before we start
complaining. Let's also hear directly from the leaders of those
non-affiliated groups, not their advocates. Too much gets lost in
translation. IMVHO, this should start at the SSA state governor level.
That being said, the governance links are behind the member door. That
keeps my e-mail from being spammed to death by bots, but the web site
probably needs a way to contact us. Perhaps a page that promotes soaring
by directing group or individual inquiries to the appropriate governor by
state.

In many ways, SSA functions as the chamber of commerce of soaring. Like
any chamber, you will not get any notice on their website, recognition for
your efforts in the community, or rights of participation without paying
your
dues. Chambers are both promotional and representative and may be
advocates, though not politically active if they are 501c(3) incorporated,
as most are. The model is a good one to consider and the organization
must continuously add value to membership, or it will wither and die. EAA
is similar, though from a different lineage. One aspect of EAA membership
(often referred to as so much cheaper than SSA) is that there are special
interest areas that add to the incremental cost, including special
periodicals for specialty areas. EAA memberships can cost more than SSA
memberships if you really like Experimenter and Warbirds, for example.
Likewise, it's more than the magazines. Many of us also assign value to
being AOPA members in addition to being SSA members.

Remember, SSA, like a chamber, is a membership organization and at least
in
the case of the SSA, it's a represetative membership. There has to be
some value-added to membership and efforts are underway to keep increasing
that value. Shame on the SSA if that process ever again languishes. The
inclusion/exclusion argument is like pulling the 'safety card'. If the
SSA body elects to exclude non-affiliated members, then it's 'not
promoting
soaring for the greater good'. Rather I think it's those that stand apart
that may be robbing the SSA of promotional funding. The office, staff,
and
daily operations have pretty much fixed costs. The magazine has
incremental costs that may be offset by volume discounts. What would be
the net effect of doubling or tripling the current membership? It could
certainly open the door to possibilities. Doable? Perhaps. There are
nearly three times as many glider ratings listed in my state (~1440) than
the ~530 SSA members.

Frank Whiteley

As an after thought, it may be possible to allow non-SSA affiliated sites to
buy a point on the map and space on the web site.

Frank