Sectional Chart Question

Gary Drescher wrote:

Note though that it refers to "populated" places, not "congested" places.
"Congested" has technical meaning in the FARs (regarding altitude rules),
and it's not clear whether "populated" means the same thing.

It doesn't. According to the local FAA, the beaches around here are congested
areas during the summer season. They aren't congested in the winter. Sandy Hook
during summer is an example of an unpopulated congested area.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:IFUte.272$2s.101@trndny02...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Note though that it refers to "populated" places, not "congested" places.
"Congested" has technical meaning in the FARs (regarding altitude rules),
and it's not clear whether "populated" means the same thing.

It doesn't. According to the local FAA, the beaches around here are
congested areas during the summer season. They aren't congested in the
winter. Sandy Hook during summer is an example of an unpopulated congested
area.

Good point. I wonder though about the converse--are populated areas always
considered congested, or can there be (sparsely) populated areas that are
considered uncongested?

--Gary

On 6/21/2005 06:40, Gary Drescher wrote:

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:IFUte.272$2s.101@trndny02...
Gary Drescher wrote:

Note though that it refers to "populated" places, not "congested" places.
"Congested" has technical meaning in the FARs (regarding altitude rules),
and it's not clear whether "populated" means the same thing.

It doesn't. According to the local FAA, the beaches around here are
congested areas during the summer season. They aren't congested in the
winter. Sandy Hook during summer is an example of an unpopulated congested
area.

Good point. I wonder though about the converse--are populated areas always
considered congested, or can there be (sparsely) populated areas that are
considered uncongested?

Well, the purpose of the detail on the chart is to provide visual cues
as to your location with respect to the populated area. Not (as far as
I know) to determine whether or not you are over a "congested" area.

However, when I was flying ultralights (which cannot be flown over
congested areas at all), my instructor would not let me fly over areas
depicted as populated on the sectional. I think he was going overboard,
but as a training rule, it was fine.

From what I've seen/read, what is or is not a congested area is not
defined well. Perhaps there are some 'legal interpretations' out there
that I've not seen yet.


--Gary




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

Gary Drescher wrote:
Good point. I wonder though about the converse--are populated areas always
considered congested, or can there be (sparsely) populated areas that are
considered uncongested?

Note that you will not find a definition of "congested" in any FAA
document. It is deliberately undefined to allow for broadly varying
enforcement.

On 6/21/2005 04:06, Gary Drescher wrote:

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 6/20/2005 12:30, Teranews wrote:
On a sectional chart, around cities, are yellow areas.
What are they?
Where on the legend can this be found?

These represent the congested parts of the cities. This should
(roughly) match the look of the city when lit up at night.
...
http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/aero_guide

Useful pointer--thanks!

Note though that it refers to "populated" places, not "congested" places.
"Congested" has technical meaning in the FARs (regarding altitude rules),
and it's not clear whether "populated" means the same thing.

Yes ... I meant Populated, not congested.
Thanks for catching that.


--Gary




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

I thought that it would make sense to look at the Aeronautical Chart Users
Guide, which is published for the specific purpose of answering questions
like this.

In the section "VFR Aeronautical Charts," under "Culture," we find that the
yellow areas represent "Cities and Large Towns," with a larger blotch of
yellow identified as "Large Cities." Nothing about lights or anything other
than population.

I tell my students to pay no attention to the boundaries of the yellow
blotches, because there is no way to identify city limits from the air, and
towns/cities simply change too fast for chart designations to make any
sense. The only practical use of the yellow blotches is, in my opinion, to
identify places where it is going to be difficult to find a place to land
(in-town airports excluded).

Bob Gardner

"Teranews" wrote in message
news:1119295818.456e1bd0d1dc4312bea6e25f65e9e825@t eranews...
A pilot recently asked me a question, that I cannot find the answer to.

On a sectional chart, around cities, are yellow areas.
What are they?
Where on the legend can this be found?

My answer was "congested areas of a city or town" which I though sounded
official
enough to work. Ah-Ha, he says, "Show me."

The specific area in question is just south of Sunriver, on the Klamath
Falls sectional. (DSD 175 @ about 25nm) I've flown over it, and it is a
combination of golf courses.

Over beer last night, one fellow suggested that it is marked that way
for "National Security Reasons".
Wink, Wink, nudge, nudge, "You are not supposed to ask.", "Why do you
think they left it off the legend."

Am I just blind? Is the print too small? Can anyone else find it on
the legend?

Al Gerharter

Bob Gardner wrote:
In the section "VFR Aeronautical Charts," under "Culture," we find that the
yellow areas represent "Cities and Large Towns," with a larger blotch of
yellow identified as "Large Cities." Nothing about lights or anything other
than population.

True, but they seem to follow the Army Field Manual on Topographic
Symbols:

b. Populated Places. A larger populated place is shown, generally true
to shape, by an outlined and [yellow] tinted area. Within the outline,
the only features usually shown are the mainline railroads and
through-route roads.

c. Use of Tinted Squares. In many areas, there is insufficient
information available to plot the correct outlines of populated places.
In such cases, tinted squares of varying sizes are used as symbols,
with the size depending upon the population or importance.

I tell my students to pay no attention to the boundaries of the yellow
blotches, because there is no way to identify city limits from the air, and
towns/cities simply change too fast for chart designations to make any
sense.

I dunno, some of the isolated smaller cities here in the Northeast do
have matching outlines at night. I've even matched up some outlines
during the day.

The only practical use of the yellow blotches is, in my opinion, to
identify places where it is going to be difficult to find a place to land
(in-town airports excluded).

Now that's definitely good advice, and a great use of the outline!

Interestingly, I ran across an ultralight website where they described
the yellow outlines as being off-limits to them, because they're
obviously congested areas.

Best regards,
Kev

On 6/20/2005 17:52, Kev wrote:


Interestingly, I ran across an ultralight website where they described
the yellow outlines as being off-limits to them, because they're
obviously congested areas.

Obviosly congested? No... These are city/town areas, but they include
congested and non congested areas. The Ultralight club's rule is a good
rule of thumb, but it's not a FAR.

The thing about Ultralights is, they need to stay 'under the radar'
such that they don't raise a lot of complaints and invite extra
legislation prohibiting their use. So, rules like these keep them
well outside the 'problem areas'.

You can legally fly an ultralight through an area depicted in yellow
on the sectional, you just need to fly over only un-congested areas.


Best regards,
Kev



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

Without disagreeing, I'd like to chime in that when learning pilotage,
I found the outlined areas on the TAC for LA to be very helpful at
figuring out where I was with precision when all else failed. There
are a lot of 'water towers' and 'radio masts' and whatnot there, so
just because I'd find a likely looking landmark wouldn't mean I was
where I thought I was.

I had a hairy moment during my checkride trying to find an airport with
a half washed out runway near Camarillo (I think it was Santa Maria)
that the examiner wanted me to point out to him. The city outline
helped me do some triangulation when ye olde Mk I Eyeball initially
failed. Great examiner (GB should id him to the locals), not only did
it give me a real challenge to demonstrate pilotage (and as a result
'put up or shut up'), but he didn't give me an engine failure while I
was circling and looking, for which I'm grateful.

On a sectional chart, around cities, are yellow areas.
What are they?

Places they are too lazy to chart.

Actually, it's only half faceitous - in the yellow areas they do not
chart =anything= (except for a few towers), which makes it hard to use
for navigation. Even roads (which would be =excellent= landmarks at
night) are omitted.

/grouse

Jose
(r.a.student cut, as I don't follow that group)
--
My other car is up my nose.
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