VFR Flight Following -- What's going on here?

Chris G. wrote:

Newps wrote:

FSDO is not the right place to call. Call your local TRACON or Center.


Actually, the FSDO in Hillsboro, Oregon, was VERY helpful. There is no
need to bug the tracon or center with this question. They're busy
making sure planes get to where they need to be.

They're not that busy that they can't answer that.



Chris

PS, your name is?

An enigma.

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

Actually, the FSDO in Hillsboro, Oregon, was VERY helpful.


How do you know that?



There is no
need to bug the tracon or center with this question. They're busy making
sure planes get to where they need to be.


Planes seem to get to where they need to be without involving TRACON or
Center.

The local FSDO helped me quite a bit in finding the references I need.
Look in FAA Order 7110.65 Para. 10-2-5 (2b). I've quoted it for your
convenience and the link is provided. It references Jay's specific
situation.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

Chris G.


10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC
and alert the appropriate DF facility when:
NOTE-
1. USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC.
2. The requirement to alert DF facilities may be deleted if radar
contact will be maintained throughout the duration of the emergency.
a. An emergency is declared by either:
1. The pilot.
2. Facility personnel.
3. Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft.
b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio
communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft.
c. Reports indicate it has made a forced landing, is about to do
so, or its operating efficiency is so impaired that a forced landing
will be necessary.
d. Reports indicate the crew has abandoned the aircraft or is about
to do so.
e. An emergency radar beacon response is received.
NOTE-
EN ROUTE. During Stage A operation, Code 7700 causes EMRG to blink
in field E of the data block.
f. Intercept or escort aircraft services are required.
g. The need for ground rescue appears likely.
h. An Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) signal is heard or reported.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Providing Assistance, Para 10-1-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Signals, Para
10-2-10.


Chris G. wrote:
I have placed a call to the local FSDO for the exact regulations
governing this, but I speak from experience, having been a State SAR
Coordinator backup for the State of Oregon a few years ago.

Chris


Peter Duniho wrote:

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

The way the SAR system works is that once the FAA has radar contact
with you and are providing radar services, they will continue to do
so unless they are unable (due to lack of radar coverage) or you
cancel them. If you fall below their radar coverage while utilizing
their services, then they begin the SAR process.



I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft.
My understanding is that the scenario in this thread was motivated
solely at the discretion of the controller, that there is no automatic
search and rescue for abnormally terminated flight following, and that
only a VFR flight plan guarantees a search and rescue attempt for
missing VFR flights.

Can you provide a reference to something that supports the idea that
airplanes getting VFR flight following are given automatic search and
rescue if they somehow are "lost" from the controller (either radio or
radar contact lost)?

Thanks,
Pete

The local FSDO helped me quite a bit in finding the references I need.
Look in FAA Order 7110.65 Para. 10-2-5 (2b). I've quoted it for your
convenience
10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS
BIG SNIP

I was having an emergency?

Perhaps that was my problem -- I didn't consider the lack of planning (i.e.:
Poor radio coverage in the Rantoul area) on Chicago's part to be an
emergency on my part.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Perhaps that was my problem -- I didn't consider the lack of planning (i.e.:
Poor radio coverage in the Rantoul area) on Chicago's part to be an
emergency on my part.

Only you would consider the results of an unannounced descent into poor
reception a lack of planning on the part of ATC.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

The local FSDO helped me quite a bit in finding the references I need.
Look in FAA Order 7110.65 Para. 10-2-5 (2b). I've quoted it for your
convenience and the link is provided. It references Jay's specific
situation.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5


That reference was posted in this thread yesterday.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft. My
understanding is that the scenario in this thread was motivated solely at
the discretion of the controller, that there is no automatic search and
rescue for abnormally terminated flight following, and that only a VFR
flight plan guarantees a search and rescue attempt for missing VFR
flights.

Can you provide a reference to something that supports the idea that
airplanes getting VFR flight following are given automatic search and
rescue if they somehow are "lost" from the controller (either radio or
radar contact lost)?


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

See subparagraph b.

He didn't get it quite right. ATC must initiate a search when there is an
UNEXPECTED loss of radar contact AND radio communications. If the losses
occur in an area where it's normal to lose them ATC isn't required to do
anything.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5

See subparagraph b.

He didn't get it quite right. ATC must initiate a search when there is an
UNEXPECTED loss of radar contact AND radio communications. If the losses
occur in an area where it's normal to lose them ATC isn't required to do
anything.

Thanks. Interesting. I assume that somewhere buried in the chain of
"inform the/alert the..." there's someone who actually starts the search and
rescue proceedings?

Given that both radar contact and radio communications must be lost, and
given that losing both unexpectedly is sufficient to cause an emergency to
be assumed, what is the maximum amount of time between the two events that
can happen while still defining an emergency?

That is, suppose radio communications are ceased but radar contact is still
present. Suppose further that the pilot eventually lands somewhere, at some
point descending low enough to no longer be on radar. It seems obvious to
me that if the pilot flies out of the controller's sector, or some lengthy
period of time goes by (30 minutes? 60 minutes?), that the controller might
be able to assume there's no emergency, while near-simultaneous loss of
radio and radar would constitute an emergency.

Somewhere in between there must be a point where the assumed emergency is no
longer an assumed emergency. Is that point well-defined, or does the
controller make a judgment call?

Finally, what constitutes radar contact? Is a primary return sufficient?
What about a 1200 transponder return? If a 1200 transponder return is
sufficient, what happens if THAT radar contact is lost within the time limit
I asked about above? Can the controller assume that the pilot switching
from his assigned code to 1200 has terminated flight following? Does the
switch to 1200 make any loss of radio communications and radar contact
"expected", or could the controller be obligated to declare an emergency
even if the transponder has been set to 1200 unexpectedly and then radar
contact is lost altogether?

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:



I have never seen any documentation of this claim, for VFR aircraft.

Nope, if you are unexpectedly lost then ATC will start a search immediatley.

"Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message
eenews.net...

The way the SAR system works is that once the FAA has radar contact with
you and are providing radar services, they will continue to do so unless
they are unable (due to lack of radar coverage) or you cancel them. If
you fall below their radar coverage while utilizing their services, then
they begin the SAR process.


That's not quite correct. They initiate SAR when there is UNEXPECTED loss
of radar contact and radio communications.