Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

I missed your last paragraph. As I noted to Andreas, it's all a matter
of what you are used to. A 200 foot rope break in the absence of
strong winds or turbulence is completely benign, at least for me,
having done hundreds of them.

What I'm finding interesting is the need to make fairly dramatic
motions of the controls as part of a cable break recovery. So again,
I'll flirt with the term aerobatic, not as a maneveur designed to
thrill and excite and audience or a passenger, but as a way to
differentiate use of the controls given these circumstances.

Even if you fail to observe the moment the rope breaks on aerotow, and
only become aware of it as you fail to maintain position behind the tow
plane, use of the controls is not nearly so dramatic as post cable
break. Nor, apparently, quite as critical. Though I think we can both
agree that they each represent real emergencies demanding preplanned
action.

wrote:

What I'm finding interesting is the need to make fairly dramatic
motions of the controls as part of a cable break recovery. So again,
I'll flirt with the term aerobatic,

Last weekend I flew in the mountains. Conditions were rough and I had to
make fairly dramatic motions of the controls to keep the blue side up.
I'll log it as an aerobatic flight, then.

Even if you fail to observe the moment the rope breaks on aerotow, and
only become aware of it as you fail to maintain position behind the tow
plane,

Awareness and prompt reaction are indispensable to survive which
launches. A winch launch *is* dangerous, in the way as there is a very
small margin for errors and it asks for your full focus.

Stefan

On 26 Jun 2005 04:57:20 -0700, wrote:


In fact, at least according to US regs, a winch launch IS an aerobatic
manuever. But that wasn't my point. If normal recovery from a normal
operation places the pilot on the ragged edge of a deep stall, then I
think it best to characterize the operation as "ab"normal., requiring
reactions unique to that environment. And thus my toying with the term
aerobatic.

LMAO.


Bye
Andreas

Glad to inject some humor into your life.

I too am amused by the risks we accept through habituation. I regularly
take off in tailwinds exceeding 15 knots, with water, on a runway only
2,600 feet long. I'm used to it, and accept the risk as a byproduct of
where I fly. Most pilots would consider these practices insane. As a
result, I stood in a amazement at a US Nationals when pilots were
showing grave concern over the safety of a launch with less than 7
miles per hour of tail wind.

For pilots who winch launch regularly, the definition of normal flight
attitudes is greatly expanded. But I think you'll all agree that it is
a highly specialized type of flying (even if you are used to it). Pull
on the stick to go faster. Push to go slower. If the cable breaks, no
messing around... stick right forward until the nose is well below the
horizon, then ease it back gently, paying attention to your airspeed.
Abrupt control motions, significantly reduced g, large angles of nose
up and nose down, close to the ground, special considerations regarding
turns... sounds to me like a pretty threatening environment, sort of
like taking off downwind at gross from a short runway. Deserves some
special consideration. And occasional reexamination to prevent the
complacency of experience.

Chuckle.

OC

On 27 Jun 2005 07:05:00 -0700, wrote:


For pilots who winch launch regularly, the definition of normal flight
attitudes is greatly expanded. But I think you'll all agree that it is
a highly specialized type of flying (even if you are used to it). Pull
on the stick to go faster. Push to go slower. If the cable breaks, no
messing around... stick right forward until the nose is well below the
horizon, then ease it back gently, paying attention to your airspeed.
Abrupt control motions, significantly reduced g, large angles of nose
up and nose down, close to the ground, special considerations regarding
turns... sounds to me like a pretty threatening environment, sort of
like taking off downwind at gross from a short runway. Deserves some
special consideration. And occasional reexamination to prevent the
complacency of experience.

Well...
1. Have you ever flown a model glider without radio control? The one
that you pull up with a rope, simulating a winch launch?
Works like a charm. In *any* halfways correctly trimmed real-size
glider you can let go the stick - and your glider will do the launch
for you. Try that in an aerotow.
How many tow pilots did you say have been victims due to
overcontrolled gliders in the last 50 years?

2. It looks as if you are simply afraid of winch launching due to lack
of training/experience. Having more winch launches than I care to
count, my experience is that *any* student pilot learns winch
launching a lot easier than aerotowing.

3. I had more than enough aerotows where any engine problem of the tow
plane would have led to a bad crash because we were low over an
unlandable area. I prefer by far the winch launch where the complete
airfield is head of me in case of a low cable-break.

4. Recovery from cable-breaks is an extremely straight forward
procedure. Very easy to perform with some training.
What did you say you are doing if you have a rope break in an aerotow
at the end of the runway in 100 ft with unlandable area in front of
you?

5. Sure a winch launch is a highly specialized type of flying. But
isn't flying without any engine at all even more highly specialized?
Imagine that - no engine means that you cannot perform a go-around if
you misjudged your landing approach...

6. Accident statistics definitely prove that winch launching is by far
one of the less risky things you can do if you fly gliders.



Bye
Andreas

wrote in message
oups.com...
For pilots who winch launch regularly, the definition of normal flight
attitudes is greatly expanded. But I think you'll all agree that it is
a highly specialized type of flying (even if you are used to it).

Probably nine out of ten glider launches world wide are by winch. I think
we are the minority using air tow.

Pull on the stick to go faster. Push to go slower.
Wrong. With a tension controlled winch, pull to slow and push to go faster
just like in free flight. If the glider speeds up when you pull, the winch
driver is giving WAY too much throttle.

If the cable breaks, no messing around... stick right forward until the
nose is well below the
horizon, then ease it back gently, paying attention to your airspeed.

No abrupt control inputs are needed. Just lower the nose without undue
delay, insure safe airspeed and land normally

Abrupt control motions, significantly reduced g, large angles of nose
up and nose down, close to the ground, special considerations regarding
turns... sounds to me like a pretty threatening environment, sort of
like taking off downwind at gross from a short runway. Deserves some
special consideration. And occasional reexamination to prevent the
complacency of experience.

OC, you really need to get a modern winch checkout. You have some very
strange and wrongheaded ideas about winch launch.

Bill Daniels