Gross Weight

Nice work if you can get it...........

It's up
to you how you teach, but I'm glad my CFI had a more realistic
attitude.........

Just remember - not everyone can really tell you what happens
realistically, and some people do try to be holier than the pope (or in
this case the FAA administrator). Not even the FAA inspectors really
take all this stuff to that kind of extreme until they want to get you.

I recall the morning of my initial CFI checkride. It was the first
(and only, out of a dozen) checkride I took not with a DE, but with a
real live FAA inspector. The had to ship him out from another FSDO,
because I chose to do my initial CFI in a glider (it was new and very
hard to ground), and we didn't have a glider-qualified inspector in our
FSDO. I requested one in August, and finally got one in November. Of
course, to be honest, this was 2001 so the little matter of 9/11 did
throw things into disarray.

We met at 8:00 AM. I can't say I wasn't extremely nervous. I knew FAA
inspectors breathed fire and ate babies for sport, and would pin you to
the wall for least little violation of FAR's. Over the course of the
oral I relaxed - clearly this wasn't that kind of inspector. Yes, he
expected me to know all sorts of stuff - but he clearly wasn't out to
get me, just there to make sure I really knew it.

Then he asked to see the aircraft documents. He checked to see that it
was in annual (and agreed that no 100-hour was necessary for us to fly)
and had the proper registration, airworthiness certificate, and flight
manual - and finally asked me to work a W&B.

"I weight 215 lbs" I said (anyone who has ever met me knows this is
bull****). "What do you weigh?"
"What do you think I weigh?" he asked, and didn't quite wink. OK... I
remembered that the L-23 we would fly had a useful load of right around
415 lbs. Of course this was a semi-aerobatic glider, with a max
loading over 5 gees, so I wasn't terribly worried about the wings
coming off. With the soft grass, I also wasn't worried about
overstressing the gear. The gentleman from the FAA easily looked like
he wighted 230-250 lbs, but I confidently said...
"Oh, right around 200 lbs."
"Yep, that's right" he said, and we both knew he was lying.
I checked to make sure I had the latest data, worked the convoluted
graphical W&B in the flight manual - and came up just about a pound
over gross. Oops. Of course he had watched me do it and explain what
I was doing.
"You know, maybe I made a bit of a mistake. I think you really weigh
about 198 lbs." I said with a straight face.
"I think you're right," he said, with an equally straight face. "I
just went to the bathroom."
So I reworked the W&B with him at 198 lbs and me at 215, and sure
enough we were just under - and well within the cg limits. (In fact,
we were well within cg limits even at our real weights).
And then we went out and we flew the glider. And by noon, I was a
certificated flight instructor with glider rating.

I always find it just a little bit amusing when people try to be holier
than the FAA. Even the people who make and enforce these rules know
they're not meant to be followed 100% of the time to the letter, any
more than traffic rules and speed limits. In those situations where
the operation is under scrutiny and can't just ignore the ones that
don't make sense (high visibility stuff like transoceanic, Part 135,
etc) the FAA issues waivers and whatever other sort of authorization
makes sense. For low visibility stuff like my initial CFI checkride,
we just winked and ignored it.

It's only when someone int he FAA wants to get you that the rules come
into play - and then they'll find a way to bust you in any case -
careless and reckless if nothing else.

Michael

The gentleman from the FAA easily looked like he
wighted 230-250 lbs, but I confidently said... "Oh,
right around 200 lbs." "Yep, that's right" he said,
and we both knew he was lying.

Almost precisely what happened on my private checkride. I told the DE
I'd put him down as 200lbs, and he glanced at the W&B, noticed it was
1lb shy of max gross, and said, yep, that's right, although we both new
different.

Fred Choate wrote:

Here is a topic that was of discussion at work today:

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a gross
weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.....is that
too much over, even if you are going to be burning enough fuel before your
first scheduled stop to be under weight for landing?

One pound over is too much if you want to be legal, maintain your
insurance, have the airplane perform according to published specs, etc.


What about airframe age, prop age...etc? Does it make a difference on
decision to "carry a little extra"?

Most airplanes don't perform better with age so having a tired engine
and then overloading certainly isn't going to make things any better.


I know that when I was receiving training, my instructor once had me bring 2
male adults with me to a lesson. That put 4 male adults in a 172 with full
fuel. I don't recall the specific weight we were at, but we were over
weight. The airport we flying out of had 8000' of runway, and my instructor
had me doing pattern work. The aircraft was very clumsy, and made me really
work at flying it. I didn't like that feeling at all! It was a good
training day.

Your instructor was (maybe still is) a moron.


Anyway, it was a good discussion between a few of us at work, so I thought
it might make a good topic here.

Why?

I would only knowingly fly an airplane over gross in an emergency
situation. Most airplanes are probably fine a few percent over gross,
but you may well be exploring unknown territory if you fly over gross.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
I know that when I was receiving training, my instructor once had me
bring 2 male adults with me to a lesson. That put 4 male adults in a 172
with full fuel. I don't recall the specific weight we were at, but we
were over weight. The airport we flying out of had 8000' of runway, and
my instructor had me doing pattern work. The aircraft was very clumsy,
and made me really work at flying it. I didn't like that feeling at all!
It was a good training day.

Your instructor was (maybe still is) a moron.

I tend to agree with you and Bob on this. Said instructor is no longer with
us. Here is the final report text from the NTSB:

AIRCRAFT 1 PRELIMINARY REPORT

On August 17, 2004, about 2340 mountain daylight time, a Beechcraft 99
Airliner, N199GL, operated as Alpine flight 5071, was destroyed during a
collision with mountainous terrain approximately six nautical miles
northeast of Neihart, Montana, near the summit of Big Baldy Mountain. The
aircraft was operated by Alpine Aviation, Inc, dba Alpine Air, of Provo,
Utah, as a visual flight rules (VFR) non-scheduled domestic air cargo flight
under the provisions of Title 14, CFR Part 135, when the accident occurred.
The airline transport pilot-in-command and pilot rated passenger received
fatal injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a company
VFR flight plan was filed. The flight originated from Billings, Montana, at
2305. The flight planned destination was Kalispell, Montana (FCA). On the
evening of August 17, Salt lake Center issued an Alert Notice (ALNOT) after
radio and radar contact with the accident aircraft was lost. The following
day, about 1145 local, the aircraft wreckage was located approximately 175
feet below the summit of Big Baldy Mountain.


The "pilot rated passenger" was a friend of mine, who likely was flying the
aircraft. This gentlemen was a long time pilot, whom I took some flight
lessons from. I didn't finish with him, and I am glad I didn't. However, I
did learn things from him, one way or another....



Anyway, it was a good discussion between a few of us at work, so I thought
it might make a good topic here.

Why?

Because discussion is a great way to bring up questions, answers, things you
may not have considered before. I believe there is a heck of a lot of
knowledge out there, but the only way to get to much of it is to ask
questions, start discussions. I think to ask why to my remark is silly. Do
you ever discuss anything with your friends or co-workers? Do you ever
discuss things among other pilots? That is why...


I would only knowingly fly an airplane over gross in an emergency
situation. Most airplanes are probably fine a few percent over gross, but
you may well be exploring unknown territory if you fly over gross.


Matt

I agree with you, and there have been alot of things brought up in this
thread that have given me more information as to why. Sometimes "because
you were told not too" isn't good enough if you know what I mean.

Fred

Operating over maximum weight is a major cause of aircraft accidents.
Don't do it. It is very dangerous.

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
Operating over maximum weight is a major cause of aircraft accidents.

Actually it isn't.

Dave wrote:

Operating over maximum weight is a major cause of aircraft accidents.
Don't do it. It is very dangerous.


Really? I find that rather surprising. Do you have any data to support
this assertion?

I certainly don't recommend operating over weight and wouldn't do it
intentionally myself, but in the scheme of illegal things to do in an
airplane, I suspect that being a little heavy is one of the more benign
offenses.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

No he didn't.

Operating over maximum weight is a major cause of aircraft accidents.
Don't do it. It is very dangerous.


Really? I find that rather surprising. Do you have any data to support
this assertion?

I certainly don't recommend operating over weight and wouldn't do it
intentionally myself, but in the scheme of illegal things to do in an
airplane, I suspect that being a little heavy is one of the more benign
offenses.


Matt

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
m...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

No he didn't.

If he didn't, then why did you post this:

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
m...

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
Operating over maximum weight is a major cause of aircraft accidents.

You "wrote" in your post that "Dave wrote" the exact same thing Matt "wrote"
in his post. Yet you are contradicting Matt's post?

Pete