Gross Weight

Wasn't asking for advice, but I certainly agree with the "don't do it".

Fred

"Happy Dog" wrote in message
.. .
"Fred Choate" wrote in

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a
gross weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.

If you're asking for advice, don't do it. But, 172? 45 lbs? Non-issue.
It's been done so many times by so many people that you don't have to
worry. Lots of 172 drivers here. Ask them what's an uncomfortable
over-gross figure. All of them. Again the advice; don't do it.

moo

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:23:42 -0700, "Fred Choate"
wrote:

Here is a topic that was of discussion at work today:

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a gross
weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.....is that
too much over, even if you are going to be burning enough fuel before your
first scheduled stop to be under weight for landing?

What about airframe age, prop age...etc? Does it make a difference on
decision to "carry a little extra"?

I know that when I was receiving training, my instructor once had me bring 2
male adults with me to a lesson. That put 4 male adults in a 172 with full
fuel. I don't recall the specific weight we were at, but we were over
weight. The airport we flying out of had 8000' of runway, and my instructor
had me doing pattern work. The aircraft was very clumsy, and made me really
work at flying it. I didn't like that feeling at all! It was a good
training day.

Anyway, it was a good discussion between a few of us at work, so I thought
it might make a good topic here.

Fred


As others have written, you are being a test pilot under those conditions.

Some a/c will fly better over gross than will others.

So far as the 15% overage for Alaska is concerned, my understanding is that
there is not a blanket endorsement for all a/c, but rather that overage is
governed by the verbiage in 14 CFR 91.323.

I do know that at least one manufacturer (Mooney) has some data for flying
an Ovation at more than the MGW. Someone I know who flew his Ovation
around the world contacted Mooney and was able to obtain some sort of
authorization allowing him to do so in order to carry extra fuel.
Performance figures were obviously different -- I believe they were
supplied also by Mooney.

Data point: My a/c was born in 1965. About ten years ago, when my shop
obtained some scales, I decided to perform a real weight and balance,
instead of merely relying on the adds/subtracts over the years of the
various modifications done to the a/c. Well, I lost 80 lbs of useful load.
What that meant is that I had been frequently over MGW.

Did it shorten the airframe life -- I dunno.

Did I have a problem with short field performance? I was never in a
critical situation.

Did I not meet book figures? No, I did not; but how many a/c do?

As to insurance coverage if you fly over MGW, instead of relying on
anecdotes here, I would read your insurance policy. I buy insurance in
part to protect me against my mistakes or oversights. If I had a policy
which required that I be in compliance with every single in order to be
covered, I'd find a different company. My policy is in effect unless I
charge any person or organization for the use of the aircraft, although I
may be reimbursed for operating expenses.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Watch the Focking Rats That Hang Around Here!! You may get an unexpected
call from the Fed's!!!

"Fred Choate" wrote in message
...
Here is a topic that was of discussion at work today:

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a
gross
weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.....is
that
too much over, even if you are going to be burning enough fuel before your
first scheduled stop to be under weight for landing?

What about airframe age, prop age...etc? Does it make a difference on
decision to "carry a little extra"?

I know that when I was receiving training, my instructor once had me bring
2
male adults with me to a lesson. That put 4 male adults in a 172 with
full
fuel. I don't recall the specific weight we were at, but we were over
weight. The airport we flying out of had 8000' of runway, and my
instructor
had me doing pattern work. The aircraft was very clumsy, and made me
really
work at flying it. I didn't like that feeling at all! It was a good
training day.

Anyway, it was a good discussion between a few of us at work, so I thought
it might make a good topic here.

Fred

Because I asked a question? That is what discussion groups are for. Asking
questions, and learning......

Fred


"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
Watch the Focking Rats That Hang Around Here!! You may get an unexpected
call from the Fed's!!!

"Fred Choate" wrote in message
...
Here is a topic that was of discussion at work today:

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a
gross
weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.....is
that
too much over, even if you are going to be burning enough fuel before
your
first scheduled stop to be under weight for landing?

What about airframe age, prop age...etc? Does it make a difference on
decision to "carry a little extra"?

I know that when I was receiving training, my instructor once had me
bring
2
male adults with me to a lesson. That put 4 male adults in a 172 with
full
fuel. I don't recall the specific weight we were at, but we were over
weight. The airport we flying out of had 8000' of runway, and my
instructor
had me doing pattern work. The aircraft was very clumsy, and made me
really
work at flying it. I didn't like that feeling at all! It was a good
training day.

Anyway, it was a good discussion between a few of us at work, so I
thought
it might make a good topic here.

Fred

NW_PILOT wrote:

Watch the Focking Rats That Hang Around Here!! You may get an unexpected
call from the Fed's!!!

You got called for rolling your C150?

--
Peter


















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"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
Watch the Focking Rats That Hang Around Here!! You may get an unexpected
call from the Fed's!!!

I thought you went away, No? Too bad.
--
Jim in NC

NW_PILOT wrote:
Watch the Focking Rats That Hang Around Here!! You may get an unexpected
call from the Fed's!!!


I'd bet that asking a rhetorical question here is less likely to lead
to a call from the "Fed's" as posting a link to a video of yourself
breaking the rules.

-R

Fred Choate wrote:
Here is a topic that was of discussion at work today:

How much is too much over gross weight? For example.....the 172 has a gross
weight of 2300 lbs, but what if you are 2345 at time of takeoff.....is that
too much over, even if you are going to be burning enough fuel before your
first scheduled stop to be under weight for landing?

What about airframe age, prop age...etc? Does it make a difference on
decision to "carry a little extra"?


Everything makes a difference. On those occasions where I've flown over, the
weight has to be within reason, and the air needs to be cool if at all possible.
It's been my experience that balance is much more critical than weight.

In any case, you're entering uncharted waters. 45 lbs in a C-172 isn't going to
make any detectable difference.... 200 lbs is unflyable on the best of days.

Many years ago, I came out of the Bahamas in a Cherokee Six with six of us on
board plus all our crap. After I cleared customs in Ft. Pierce, FL, I taxied
over to get some lunch and fuel. I told them to fill the mains only. Later
after we'd eaten, I checked the mains to verify they were full and taxied out
for takeoff.

Jeez... what a pig it was. I averaged somewhere between 150 and 180 fpm climb
at best rate. I couldn't figure what was wrong until my eyes wandered across
the fuel guages... ALL four of them were full. That was an extra 34 gallons I
hadn't depended on with an already heavy aircraft on a hot day. I eventually
worked my way up to cooler air and burned off some fuel. And learned to check
*all* the tanks, not just the ones I ordered fueled.

If the aircraft had been out of balance, we'd have crashed for sure.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Fred Choate" wrote

How much is too much over gross weight?

Terminology...terminology...terminology :-)

Where did you guys pick up the term "gross weight" with
regard to aircraft operating limitations? The FAA sure
doesn't use it and I understand it to mean what ever the
airplane weighs at some particular time.

From Part 23:

Section 23.3: Airplane categories.
(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have
a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine
or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500
pounds or less,

Section 23.25: Weight limits.
(a) Maximum weight. The maximum weight is the highest weight
at which compliance with each applicable requirement of this
part (other than those complied with at the design landing
weight) is shown. The maximum weight must be established so
that it is—

Note the use of "Maximum Certificated Takeoff Weight" and
"maximum weight".

At some airlines, I have seen references to "Maximum Gross
Weight" and "Actual Gross Weight", but never just Gross Weight
meaning a certificate limit.

Bob Moore

That is interesting. I will start re-reading. Thanks for pointing that
out.

Fred


"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
"Fred Choate" wrote

How much is too much over gross weight?

Terminology...terminology...terminology :-)

Where did you guys pick up the term "gross weight" with
regard to aircraft operating limitations? The FAA sure
doesn't use it and I understand it to mean what ever the
airplane weighs at some particular time.

From Part 23:

Section 23.3: Airplane categories.
(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have
a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine
or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500
pounds or less,

Section 23.25: Weight limits.
(a) Maximum weight. The maximum weight is the highest weight
at which compliance with each applicable requirement of this
part (other than those complied with at the design landing
weight) is shown. The maximum weight must be established so
that it is-

Note the use of "Maximum Certificated Takeoff Weight" and
"maximum weight".

At some airlines, I have seen references to "Maximum Gross
Weight" and "Actual Gross Weight", but never just Gross Weight
meaning a certificate limit.

Bob Moore