"Refusing to Handle You"

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
"Unable 13,000. Tell you what, can you give me direct Salisbury VOR for
now, and let me go off frequency for a while to talk to Flight Service?"

"Unable Salsbury. I already told you Potomac is refusing to accept you."

(I'm making up the fact that Salsbury is served by Potomac approach - you
as a pilot have no good way to know what is and what isn't. In fact,
Salsbury may only be served by Potomac from 3000 to 7000, but you are at
5000 and the controller is being as helpful and forthcoming now as he was
originally).

Now what?

Jose

How about "Request routing around Potomac approach"?

Chip, ZTL

How about "Request routing around Potomac approach"?

Sure, as long as that doesn't take me on a three hundred mile tour of
the midwest.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I need to fly around or over Potomac's airspace. So, I might start by
asking some questions:

"If I climbed up to 9000, would that help?"

Center comes back with, "Sorry, you'd need to get up to 13,000 to stay in
Center airspace on that route, can you make that?" (I'm making that up,
but
it sounds plausable).


As I recall from a conversation with a Washington ARTCC controller some
years ago, the forerunner of Potomac approach went up to either FL180 or
FL240.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Because ATC is supposed to be helpful, and this is not.


Why isn't it helpful for ATC to ask the pilot's intentions? Do you think
it'd be better if ATC decided on a remedial course of action without input
from the pilot?



The pilot has no
idea what "Potomac" is (from a routing standpoint)


The controller does. Ask him.



or for how long they
will be refusing to honor the clearance the pilot =already= has.


Until about 2 AM.



Therefore
the pilot has no basis from which to plan a new routing, or to consider
the altenratives.


He knows he can't go through Potomac approach and he doesn't want to go
through the weather, he needs to select an alternative to those. That
shouldn't be too hard for any experienced pilot.



ATC however does know the pilot's destination and equipment, and probably
has a pretty good idea of what the weather and traffic ahead is.
Therefore ATC is in a good position to offer helpful alternatives. They
are refusing to do so.


No they're not.



Empirically, it's an odd thing to say because it is rarely said. That by
itself makes it odd.


That you haven't experienced it doesn't make it rare, it just means you're
inexperienced. Many high density TRACONs simply do not work thruflights.



The pilot certainly can fly that route. ATC doesn't want him to.
Specifically Potomac doesn't want him to.


The pilot can't fly that route because Potomac approach says he can't.



Meaningful input requires information that ATC has, that the pilot
doesn't, and that ATC is pointedly not giving the pilot.


The pilot can ask, ATC can't read minds.



Perhaps we have different definitions of "accomodating".


Perhaps. I use Webster's. What do you use?



Let's see if I can learn something, and turn this around.


Oooh, something new!



It's =you=
flying up the coast, say to Teterboro. You're directly on the other side
of Potomac Approach's airspace (whatever shape it happens to be at that
time). For argument's sake, you're at 5000 feet in a rental 172RG with a
moving map GPS, no radar, no spherics, and no weather imagery available to
you (except via descriptions on the radio). You have three and a half
hours of gas, and have a clearance through to your destination, which
takes you in between building TCU. There are cells to your west and
northwest somewhere, maybe forty miles off your route. You're IMC.

"N423YL, Potomac is refusing to handle you. What are your intentions?"

How do you respond?


I respond with, "Never mind that center, my route takes me in between
building TCU. N423YL requests clearance to Richmond via direct."

The pilot has no
idea what "Potomac" is (from a routing standpoint)
The controller does. Ask him.

Supposed I asked. What would the answer be? (I'm more interested in
how long it would take for the controller to communicate the relevant
information).

Therefore ATC is in a good position to offer helpful alternatives. They
are refusing to do so.
No they're not.

Yes they are. We're back to Monty Python. The pilot wants to get to
his destination efficiently. The controller knows what's 'open' and
what's not, or is at least in a much better position to ascertain this.

The pilot can ask, ATC can't read minds.

ATC can read flight plans. Doing so would provide a clue as to what the
pilot wants, unless things are so balled up that there really isn't any
good way to get to the destination. In that case, ATC really doesn't
know what the pilot would want. Otherwise, it pretty much goes without
saying that the pilot wants to get to his destination, and that makes it
reasonable for ATC to offer reasonable alternatives.

Let's see if I can learn something, and turn this around.
Oooh, something new!

Actually, I learned something once before.

"N423YL, Potomac is refusing to handle you. What are your intentions?"

How do you respond?

I respond with, "Never mind that center, my route takes me in between
building TCU. N423YL requests clearance to Richmond via direct."

"Unable direct Richmond, that takes you through Potomac. What are your
intentions?"

I made that up; I'm pretty sure that you know where Potomac lies and
picked a good route, but if it were an unfamiliar approach, you might
not reasonably know that direct wherever would take you through the
closed approach. So, pretend with me that you didn't know the area, and
are now faced with my reply.

At some point you are likely to ask for suggested routings, and that's
where I think the controller should have started.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Supposed I asked. What would the answer be? (I'm more interested in how
long it would take for the controller to communicate the relevant
information).


Probably the airways or VORs that define the route around it.



Yes they are. We're back to Monty Python.


No, you're just being Jose. You say ATC is refusing to offer helpful
alternatives, but ATC wasn't asked for any alternatives, therefore it cannot
be said that ATC is refusing to offer helpful alternatives. Well, I guess
it can if you want to appear stupid.



The pilot wants to get to his destination efficiently.

How do you know he doesn't want to divert and wait out the weather?



The controller knows what's 'open' and what's not, or is at least in a
much better position to ascertain this.


But not in a position to know what the pilot wants.



ATC can read flight plans. Doing so would provide a clue as to what the
pilot wants, unless things are so balled up that there really isn't any
good way to get to the destination. In that case, ATC really doesn't know
what the pilot would want.


Now you're catchin' on!



"Unable direct Richmond, that takes you through Potomac. What are your
intentions?"


No, it takes me into Potomac approach. I'm no longer a thruflight, I'm now
an arrival. Potomac approach may not do thruflights, but they definitely do
arrivals.



I made that up; I'm pretty sure that you know where Potomac lies and
picked a good route, but if it were an unfamiliar approach, you might not
reasonably know that direct wherever would take you through the closed
approach. So, pretend with me that you didn't know the area, and are now
faced with my reply.


As I explainedabove, it's not a closed approach anymore.



At some point you are likely to ask for suggested routings, and that's
where I think the controller should have started.


Why would I need a route suggestion? My diversion takes care of the weather
problem, I don't need any help navigating.

We're back to Monty Python.

No, you're just being Jose.

And you're just being Steven.

How do you know he doesn't want to divert and wait out the weather?

It's not the weather that prompted the exchange, it was Potomac's
refusal to accept the flight. Had it been the weather, the pilot would
likely have requested the diversion first. Granted, maybe the weather
contributes to Potomac's INABILITY to handle the flight, but REFUSAL
does not imply INABILITY (though it does imply inconvenience).

unless things are so balled up...
Now you're catchin' on!

"State intentions": "what are you going to do?" (controller has
hands-off stance)

"State request": "how can I help you?" (controller is offering
coordination assistance - which is the controller's reason for being)

No, it takes me into Potomac approach. I'm no longer a thruflight

Got it. I'd have to know (or suspect) that the reason they are
=refusing= to accept me is that they (as a matter of policy) don't take
thruflights, and not that they are balled up by the weather, or don't
like the position of my wings, or just don't feel like doing whatever it
takes to squeeze me through.

I would never (prior to this exchange) suspected that "they just don't
do thruflights" or "today they aren't doing thruflights".

Ok, in the future I'll try gaming the system. Everyone does that, and
soon Potomac will refuse to accept incoming. Chicago will follow suit.

That is what's happening. The pilots of all those air carrier jets
streaming through the airspace you want to use are getting what they want.
Traffic flows are dictated by air carrier needs because they're the biggest
users.

Some time back, in a different thread (about angelflight) you stated
that angelflight did not get any priority, and continued to say that
aircraft are handled on a first-come first-served basis. Your statement
above seems to contradict that (otherwise I could just be scooted in
front of the next jet that's not there yet).

"Refusing" to accept you is different from "IS UNABLE" to accept you.
Not in this case.

Yes in this case, if they are "unable" to handle me because of all the
jets that haven't gotten there yet. They are unable to handle me =and=
give the jets priority. If what you say is operative, they are
=unwilling= to not give the jets priority in order to let me through.

ARTCC boundaries sometimes change, but they're on the charts.

Maybe that's it, but as I recall it also had to do with altitudes, which
to my knowledge are not charted in that detail.

Then you haven't flown enough.

Right. I could fly twice as much and it wouldn't be enough.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.