CFI logging instrument time

"john price" wrote in message ...
Barry first of all, the scenario is not possible, since to be a single
engine CFI, I believe you need to have a single engine instrument
rating... If somehow, the instructor is not instrument rated in the
airplane, he has no business being in IFR conditions...

We're talking about instrument ratings on his INSTRUCTOR certificate.
You know, II.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:45 -0500, "Barry" wrote:

One can argue that a CFI without the CFII is not authorized to give
instrument flight instruction,

Nah. A CFI without the CFII is not authorized to give instrument
flight instruction that counts toward the "instrument training" or
"instrument flight instruction" that may be required for a
certificate, rating, or currency.

The restriction is on what may be counted for these purposes, on to n
giving instrument instruction.

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

"Barry" wrote in message
...
| A CFI with airplane single-engine rating but not instrument-airplane (not
a
| CFII) gives flight instruction to a private pilot. Part of the flight is
in
| the clouds, with the private pilot flying. Can the CFI log instrument
time
| under FAR 61.51(g)(2):
|
| "An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting
instrument
| flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions." ?
|

A CFI may give instrument flight instruction, but that flight instruction
cannot count for the instrument rating. The CFI in your case may log
instrument flight time.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...



A CFI may give instrument flight instruction, but that flight instruction
cannot count for the instrument rating. The CFI in your case may log
instrument flight time.

Finally....an answer to the question.

A CFI may give instrument flight instruction, but that flight
instruction cannot count for the instrument rating. The CFI
in your case may log instrument flight time.

Finally....an answer to the question.


But is this just a personal interpretation (which agrees with my own
interpretation), or does C.J. have a reference or precedent?

Barry

"Barry" wrote in message
...
| A CFI may give instrument flight instruction, but that flight
| instruction cannot count for the instrument rating. The CFI
| in your case may log instrument flight time.
|
| Finally....an answer to the question.
|
|
| But is this just a personal interpretation (which agrees with my own
| interpretation), or does C.J. have a reference or precedent?
|

FAR 61.196 c. The CFII is needed only for giving instruction for an
instrument rating or for a type rating not limited to VFR. There is no
prohibition against a CFI giving any other instrument training, including an
instrument proficiency check under FAR 61.57 (probably a loophole in the
regs that should be fixed). Under 61.51(g)(2) a flight instructor may log
instrument flight time if giving instruction in instrument flight
conditions. There is no provision limiting this logging of time only to
CFIIs.

FAR 61.196 c. The CFII is needed only for giving instruction for an
instrument rating or for a type rating not limited to VFR. There is no
prohibition against a CFI giving any other instrument training, including an
instrument proficiency check under FAR 61.57 (probably a loophole in the
regs that should be fixed). Under 61.51(g)(2) a flight instructor may log
instrument flight time if giving instruction in instrument flight
conditions. There is no provision limiting this logging of time only to
CFIIs.


This is your interpretation. Personally, I agree, but when someone asked me
this question and I started looking into it a little more, I realized that
other interpretations are possible.

FAR 61.51(g)(2), which I started with in my original post, states:

"An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument
flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions."

Note that it says "instrument flight instruction," not just "flight
instruction". FAR 61.1 unfortunately has no definition for "instrument
flight instruction," but it does define "instrument training" as "that time
in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under
actual or simulated instrument conditions." Is a non-CFII an "authorized
instructor" for instrument flight instruction? I couldn't find this exact
question in the FAA's Part 61 FAQ
(http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc , a 2 MB file), but
related issues are addressed there. In the section dealing with Commercial
Pilot requirements (page 325, Q&A-60), the FAQ states that only a CFII can
provide the instrument training required for the Commercial:

"Ref. § 61.1(b)(10); Yes, the instrument training required by § 61.129
requires a CFII (with the appropriate aircraft and instrument rating on the
CFI certificate) to provide the flight training."

On page 381 (Q&A-283), the FAQ draws a distinction between "real instrument
training" and the training given to student pilots:

"For years, the FAA has differentiated between the kind of training
described in § 61.109(a)(3) [i.e., “... 3 hours of flight training in a
single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely
by reference to instruments...”] and REAL “instrument training.” Therefore
.... a CFI-ASE can give the 3 hours of Private Pilot flight training on the
control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments
[i.e., §61.109(a)(3)] because the training is not REAL “instrument
training.”

So one could argue that a CFI (non-CFII) who instructs a student pilot in
the clouds could NOT log the instrument time, because he's not
conducting "instrument training". But what if the same CFI gives the same
flight instruction to a private pilot? It's not clear.

By the way, page 136 (Q&A-315) of the FAQ addresses your point about a CFI
(non-CFII) being authorized to conduct an IPC (no surprise, the FAA says a
CFII is required).

I should add that I disagree with some of the answers in the FAQ, and that
the FAQ includes a disclaimer stating that the contents are not legal
interpretations.

Barry

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...



A CFI may give instrument flight instruction, but that flight instruction
cannot count for the instrument rating. The CFI in your case may log
instrument flight time.

Finally....an answer to the question.


and a mostly correct answer, with one small nit -- the instrument flight
instruction cannot count as part of the 15 hours required to be given
under 61.65.d.2.i-iii, but it certainly can count as part of the 40 hours
of actual or simulated instrument time required by 61.65.d.2 (before the
subparagraphs) -- assuming the non-instrument rated pilot was sole
manipulator of the controls.

mho,

g_a