Engine over TBO at purchase

In article , Newps
wrote:

If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.
$400 for a new one.

alternator O/H,
$300.

starter O/H,
$250.

fuel and oil hoses,
$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.

depends on the airplane.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

"Newps" wrote in message
news


Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.



If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.

$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat
tubing,

Hardly anything.

Then too... http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187727-1.html

/excerpt
The Savvy Aviator #8: Overhaul Overdone
August 4, 2004
By Mike Busch ,
Columnist


When an instrument, accessory or other appliance stops working on our
airplanes, we generally get it overhauled or exchange it for an overhauled
exchange unit, right? Wrong, says AVweb's Mike Busch, who argues that
overhaul is often unnecessary and a big waste of money, and offers several
illustrative cases-in-point.

Why are so many aircraft owners and A&P mechanics "spring-loaded to the
overhaul position"? I think the word "overhaul" might be the most overused
and misunderstood word in the lexicon of aircraft maintenance.

Last week, I was talking to a friend who had just put his airplane in the
shop for its annual inspection. I asked him if he'd submitted any squawks
for the shop to fix. He replied, "My nose strut hasn't been feeling right
and it's been weeping fluid, so I had them overhaul it."

I pointed out to my friend that I was sure the shop hadn't really
"overhauled" his leaky nose strut. The shop would have disassembled the
strut, cleaned it, replaced the O-ring seals with new ones, then reassembled
the strut and serviced it hydraulic fluid and compressed nitrogen. That's a
"reseal" or a "repair" but not an "overhaul."

/end excerpt


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.

Opinions vary,
Mike


Newps wrote:


Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.



If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.


$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat

tubing,


Hardly anything.

Mike Spera wrote:

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.



Yes, restorations cost a lot more.

"Mike Spera" wrote in message
nk.net...

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.

Opinions vary,
Mike


Q - What is the definition of an architect's estimate?
A - The cost of construction in heaven.

The question is not how much will it cost to fix, but how much to fix
properly.
Sellers and buyers will never agree on this one.

I think the best advice is to never fall in love until after the deal and to
recognize that as a new and inexperienced buyer you need to consider and
reject a lot of possibilities and treat them as learning experience and
evaluation practice so that you will recognize the right deal (and a
motivated seller). Just learning to read and evaluate log books is not
something you can do properly unless you have seriously looked at lots of
them. I would suggest that any prospective purchaser do a serious
evaluation of every set of log books possible and not just for the aircraft
types that you are seriously considering.

When you do find the right aircraft.
Never underestimate the power of the offer, sellers see lots of lookers but
few real buyers and even a lowball offer may be the only one they get and
they may be a lot more motivated than they will admit.

The bottom line is that in any buy / sell negotiation, when the buyer says
no he keeps his money, and when sellers say no they keep their (continuing)
expenses. Book? prices are fine in a liquid market of similar commodities
but in a limited market there are seldom as many buyers as are required to
ensure liquidity, and a seller may have to wait a long time.

Remember that the price you pay for an aircraft is just the down payment on
the maintenance.

Happy landings

DHead wrote:
Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?

$5K off for the overhaul is not reasonable. Should be closer to $15-20K.

I have no heartburn with buying a plane with a runout engine, provided it is
priced appropriately. It gives you the chance to get a quality overhaul that is
supervised by you. Do not let the seller do a cheap overhaul and pass the
problems along to you.

Be sure you know which engine is in the Sundowner. I think some Sundowners have
a geared engine that is rare and parts are hard to find and it may be
un-overhaul-able. Sorry if I raise an alarm unnecessarily. Others will correct me.

Dave

DHead wrote:

The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:qQAHe.7250$r12.4363@trndny04...
DHead wrote:

The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking
price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily
discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt
engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

I would take that bet.

Most owners don't comprehend what TBO is and what it represents.

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
he's full of it.

Matt Barrow wrote:

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
he's full of it.

It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k beats
the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value (with the
runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some asshole
complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And wanting
another $12k knocked off.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:W6BHe.7256$r12.2252@trndny04...
Matt Barrow wrote:

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant,
or
he's full of it.

It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k
beats
the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value
(with the
runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

Half right...it depends on the book value. From there, you adjust. Many
will try to fleece a buy by making a great sounding offer, say $5K towards
an overhaul. Another is to portray the aircraft as a "8" or something. Other
than brand new, everything is a "5" and you go from there.

When I bought mine it had a nice interior, but it was still six years old
and the seller tried to claim it was an "8".


I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some
asshole
complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And
wanting
another $12k knocked off.

Did he know the book value? Many don't. Also, many don't comprehend what TBO
really is.