Stop whining, America!

The official verdict of the Coast Guard and NTSB is she floundered due
to heavy damage from waves in 500 feet of water.
http://www.boatnerd.com/fitz/

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
news:Ho4Qe.2389
The Edmund Fitzgerald ran aground and then sank.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:P0RPe.282907$x96.117848@attbi_s72...
Ocean waves are very far apart so even a 30 foot wave is no big deal,
great
lakes waves are very close together and very steep. Get down in the
trough
of an ocean wave and the water just rolls underneath you. Get in a
trough
of a good sized wave on the great lakes and you are looking at a near
verticle wall of water.

Remember the "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"? That was a giant (729
foot) lake freighter, which was either broken in two or driven under by
the waves of a Great Lakes November storm. See http://www.ssefo.com/
fore more info.

The Great Lakes are nothing like an inland lake. I've watched many
awesome storms (thankfully from shore) that generated waves of almost
unbelievable violence, frequency and intensity.

And the closest I've ever felt to death was on a small car ferry,
crossing
"Death's Door" (the gap between Washington Island and Gill's Rock, at
the
tip of the Door Peninsula in Lake Michigan) during an October storm.
The
waves were awesome, and the skeletons of many, many wrecks litter the
bottom of Lake Michigan in that area.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The Edmund Fitzgerald ran aground and then sank.

Mike
MU-2

Nonsense...nobody knows for sure what sank the Fitz. The best guess is the
bow filled with water and she dove to the bottom. What caused her to fill
by the bow is unknown. The grounding story has been disproven due to the
supposed shoal being a chart error. The shoal she supposedly hit simply
does not exist.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

The Edmund Fitzgerald ran aground and then sank.

No, she foundered in a storm. She was 17 miles from shore and lies in 530' of water.

http://www.boatnerd.com/fitz

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Matt Barrow" wrote

BIG difference between fresh water and salt? Or _relatively_ shallow
water?

Just curious...the closest I ever got to water was McHales Navy.

The shallow water of the Great Lakes is the major factor, but the strength
of the sudden squalls also makes it wicked.

It is hard to explain how steep the waves get in Lake Erie. I have no
direct experience on Lake Michigan, or on the Eastern end of Erie. As I
said in another post, the depth of West Erie is less than 30 feet. I think
28 sticks in my mind.

To try an explain how steep a 12 foot wave is, let me relate a tale of mine,
on the lake.

I was with my Dad, and other family members on a fine day, with relatively
calm waves of 2 to 4 feet. The sky darkened up ahead, and we turned on the
weather radio. A storm warning was up for a fast moving squall line, moving
fast towards us. We were way out of sight of land; about 12 miles, which
might have been 100, as far as getting out of the way of the storm was
concerned.

We prepared the boat by reefing the main sail (reducing the surface area of
it, by almost half), and taking down the jib. (front sail) The wind came
up, and it was so strong that we could not control the boat, so we took the
main down. Our next option was starting the motor to try to keep at 45
degrees to the waves; reducing the chance of being turned over, and reducing
the strength of the waves from hitting them head on. Soon the wind was
blowing around 50 to 60 MPH, and the waves had gone from 4 feet to 12 feet
or more, all in the time span of 20 minutes. On the ocean, a sudden squall
would have made the boat harder to handle because of the wind, but the waves
would not have increased nearly that quickly; taking hours instead of
minutes. Depth is the factor, again.

Here is what I was leading up to, to help you understand.

The waves were so steep, that while we were on top of the wave, the
propeller was OUT of the water. The faces of the waves had to have been
more than 45 degrees, as we went up and down them. The top of one wave to
next was very close together, with the front and the back of the boat
touching the last wave and the next one, all at the same time.

Soon, we were not able to control the direction of the boat in relation to
the waves, since the prop was out of the water for so long. The only thing
we had left was to throw the anchor out and hope it held, and tie it to the
bow. (front) It held, and we rode out the storm for another 30 minutes, and
then the waves started to get smaller, and another 30 minutes we were on our
way. I feared for my life, that day.

Now, for all of you sailors out there, we did very little right, that day.
It was the first year, (we didn't know nearly enough) and we were still
learning, and not well equipped for such storms. We got a storm jib (very
small) and another set of reefs for the main, (to make it smaller, yet) and
purchased a sea anchor. That is a unit that looks somewhat like a wind
sock, and provides a way to let the boat drag through the water, and pull on
the boat to keep it pointed in the direction that you need.

The ocean wind makes big waves, but if you are in deep water, the angle of
the faces of the waves are maybe 15 or 20 degrees. (until you get to the
perfect storm type of waves g) Compare that to more than 45 degrees for
Lake Erie. A 25 foot boat seems big, but unless sailed correctly, is no
match for those conditions.

I hope this helps you understand a little bit more of how quickly it gets
fierce on the Great Lakes. It has killed many experienced sailors, and in
much bigger boats, and even ships.
--
Jim in NC

There is a somewhat famous picture of a J30 (IIRC) that launched off the
back side of a wave off Michigan City at the south end of Lake Michigan.
The boat was totally out of the water with the sails still pulling. Kinda
reminded one of the Morrow Bay incident picture.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote

BIG difference between fresh water and salt? Or _relatively_ shallow
water?

Just curious...the closest I ever got to water was McHales Navy.

The shallow water of the Great Lakes is the major factor, but the strength
of the sudden squalls also makes it wicked.

It is hard to explain how steep the waves get in Lake Erie. I have no
direct experience on Lake Michigan, or on the Eastern end of Erie. As I
said in another post, the depth of West Erie is less than 30 feet. I
think
28 sticks in my mind.

Morgans wrote:

Now, for all of you sailors out there, we did very little right, that day.
It was the first year, (we didn't know nearly enough) and we were still
learning, and not well equipped for such storms. We got a storm jib (very
small) and another set of reefs for the main, (to make it smaller, yet) and
purchased a sea anchor. That is a unit that looks somewhat like a wind
sock, and provides a way to let the boat drag through the water, and pull on
the boat to keep it pointed in the direction that you need.

Every experienced sailor has been there at one time or another. One
thing that's good to know is how to heave-to. You basically set the
headsail on an opposing tack and lash the tiller hard to windward, and
the boat *should* just sort of hang right there. Depending on wind
direction this may give you a better option than dragging on a drogue,
especially if you've got a lee shore nearby.

http://www.sailonline.com/seamanship...ng_to_man.html

The "should" part of this is that not all boats heave-to equally well
depending on the keel and rig design, so it's good to practice before
it's a real emergency.

-cwk.

wrote

One
thing that's good to know is how to heave-to. You basically set the
headsail on an opposing tack and lash the tiller hard to windward, and
the boat *should* just sort of hang right there.

Learned that one the next year. :-)

Ours was shoal draft, swing board. It would be at near knock-down in the
conditions that day, I'll bet.

Dragging warfs might have worked that day.
--
Jim in NC

On 2005-08-26, Jay Honeck wrote:
"Turbulence" on Lake Michigan will turn the stoutest blue-water Navy man
green. When it gets rough on the Great Lakes, get off the water -- period.

Probably no worse than the north Irish Sea (where we had two hurricane
force storms within a week last winter, and it's not that unusual
either).

I've been on the Ben my Chree (a bloody great big
car/truck/passenger/cargo ferry belonging to the Isle of Man Steam
Packet Company) when it was so rough that people weren't just going
green, they were being thrown out of their seats. The lights went out
once or twice, and the ship was slamming. I'm glad I wasn't on a fishing
vessel that day.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

"Turbulence" on Lake Michigan will turn the stoutest blue-water Navy man
green.

Tee-hee! Don't be silly:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7793

Yep that one was silly I've never been in the Great Lakes but I sure have
been across the ocean. I have seen waves coming over the flight deck of a
carrier and destroyers spending more time under the water than on the
surface. The outside of a hurricane is a very interesting experience at sea.
I think you under estimate the power of the open sea and definitely under
estimate the ability of a professional sailor.
Those destroyer boys are sure a special breed. I tip my hat to them.
Sailing the seas was an adventure I'll never forget. Some of the most
beautiful sunsets and sunrises I've ever seen. Tranquil waters that looked
like the ship was sailing over glass,..and then all of a sudden the most
destructive , powerful force in nature sets it's eyes upon you and you are
looking down a valley of ocean like looking off a mountain top...the next
minute you are looking up at the ocean on either side of you like you are in
the valley looking up at the tops of mountains.
Sitting on the bow of that carrier with your legs hanging off the front
of the ship, playing guitar under a beautiful clear sky full of stars as far
as you can see, the sounds of the waves on the hull as she pushes her way
onward to the next port. Sometimes when you are there it is hard to believe
the awesome force and violence that the same ocean can give you on any other
day at any other time.
A great experience that I wish more people could share. Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt. We did have a boy from NYC that stayed green the entire time we were
out at sea...I mean the entire trip! I know he was miserable but it was
still pretty funny

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

"Turbulence" on Lake Michigan will turn the stoutest blue-water Navy man
green.

Tee-hee! Don't be silly:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7793