FAR 91.157 Operating in icing conditions

91.527
I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."


This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are). Ice is insidious, and
very dangerous. It creeps up on you a little at a time like quicksand, and if
you don't get out quickly, it can easily become too late.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).


Forbidden by what?

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).


Forbidden by what?


The laws of physics, ultimately. The FARs before that (though I can't find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless" if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for aircraft,
same as aerobatic stuff and equipment required.) The FAA has made it clear
that unless the aircraft is certificated for known ice, you can't even legally
enter forecast ice.

Now, to open another can of worms, the FAA has produced an excellent video on
icing (which they show at various safety seminars) in which they take the
viewer through several flight scenarios. Well worth watching several times.

However, I take a bit of an issue with one thing - the "unprotected"
(non-de-iced) airplane pilot is flying in the clouds in non-icing conditions,
towards a front that contains ice (there is ice above). On takeoff the weather
briefing indicated that the front would not be an issue, but the weather moved
in faster. Temperatures go down, and he gets ice. Now what?

IN subsequent discussion, one possibility is to climb and get on top of the
overcast, and it would be reasonable if the destination were clear. (mabye
also in other situations). This would be legal (he's already in ice and trying
to get out). However, if he were not YET in ice, it would be illegal
(deliberately entering icing conditions). Seems to me that at that point,
(he's in non-icing conditions, non-icing is behind him, temps going down , his
destination ahead of him, and ice ahead of him) continuing would be illegal,
but the FAA guy didn't have the opinion that continuing would constitute
"deliberately entering ice..." and it's all a matter of bablance.

Well, yes but...

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

The laws of physics, ultimately. The FARs before that (though I can't
find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless"
if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for
aircraft,
same as aerobatic stuff and equipment required.)


The FARs come before the laws of physics?



The FAA has made it clear
that unless the aircraft is certificated for known ice, you can't even
legally
enter forecast ice.


What law, other than a natural law, would such an action violate?

The FARs come before the laws of physics?

Sometimes the FAA will smite you first. Other times they don't get there in
time, and you are left facing teh Grand Canonical Ensemble.

What law, other than a natural law, would such an action violate?

The type certificate.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:
For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).



Forbidden by what?
snip (though I can't find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless" if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for aircraft,
snip

It's usually the aircraft's type certificate that specifies whether it can be
flown in ice, but older types don't have any statement about ice in the type
certificate.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

We have an *authorized procedure* out here in the Pacific Northwest,
developed by the FSDO Aviation Safety Manager and the folks at the TRACON,
specifically for use when icing conditions are forecast. It is called "Radar
Vectors for Ice" and involves vectors to climb away from the Cascades until
high enough to be well above the freezing level or in the clear. Obviously,
since this procedure was developed by the FAA and published in the Safety
Program newsletter every year at this time, a forecast of icing conditions
is not, in and of itself, a bar to flight.

There is a CYA caveat, of course, that nothing in the procedure should be
taken as encouragment to take off into icing conditions.

Bob Gardner

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft
is
certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).


Forbidden by what?


The laws of physics, ultimately. The FARs before that (though I can't
find a
specific rule, it would certainly be classified as "careless and reckless"
if
it led to an incident - it might be in the certification rules for
aircraft,
same as aerobatic stuff and equipment required.) The FAA has made it
clear
that unless the aircraft is certificated for known ice, you can't even
legally
enter forecast ice.

Now, to open another can of worms, the FAA has produced an excellent video
on
icing (which they show at various safety seminars) in which they take the
viewer through several flight scenarios. Well worth watching several
times.

However, I take a bit of an issue with one thing - the "unprotected"
(non-de-iced) airplane pilot is flying in the clouds in non-icing
conditions,
towards a front that contains ice (there is ice above). On takeoff the
weather
briefing indicated that the front would not be an issue, but the weather
moved
in faster. Temperatures go down, and he gets ice. Now what?

IN subsequent discussion, one possibility is to climb and get on top of
the
overcast, and it would be reasonable if the destination were clear.
(mabye
also in other situations). This would be legal (he's already in ice and
trying
to get out). However, if he were not YET in ice, it would be illegal
(deliberately entering icing conditions). Seems to me that at that point,
(he's in non-icing conditions, non-icing is behind him, temps going down ,
his
destination ahead of him, and ice ahead of him) continuing would be
illegal,
but the FAA guy didn't have the opinion that continuing would constitute
"deliberately entering ice..." and it's all a matter of bablance.

Well, yes but...

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Bob Gardner wrote:

We have an *authorized procedure* out here in the Pacific Northwest,
developed by the FSDO Aviation Safety Manager and the folks at the TRACON,
specifically for use when icing conditions are forecast. It is called "Radar
Vectors for Ice" and involves vectors to climb away from the Cascades until
high enough to be well above the freezing level or in the clear. Obviously,
since this procedure was developed by the FAA and published in the Safety
Program newsletter every year at this time, a forecast of icing conditions
is not, in and of itself, a bar to flight.

Of course not -- airspace is three-dimensional. I don't cancel a flight
planned for 4000 ft in the summer because there's icing forecast from 15,000
to 20,000 ft. I wonder if there is anyone in this group who is seriously
arguing that I should cancel such a flight.


All the best,


David

Obviously, since this procedure was developed by the FAA and
published in the Safety Program newsletter every year at this time, a
forecast of icing conditions is not, in and of itself, a bar to
flight.


Hmmmm...You're saying that the Safety Program newsletter trumps the
FARs?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
.net...
|
| "Teacherjh" wrote in message
| ...
|
| This applies to large and turbine powered aircraft.
|
| For us little guys, ANY ICE AT ALL is forbidden. (unless the aircraft
is
| certified for known ice, which very few spam cans are).
|
|
| Forbidden by what?

The published operating limitations of the aircraft, which must be adhered
to in accordance with the type certificate and the general prohibition
against reckless and dangerous operation. Most modern light planes have
specific provisions in their type certificates prohibiting flight into known
icing conditions.

Additionally, commercial operators flying under part 135 are prohibited from
flying into known icing conditions unless the aircraft is certified for it.