These are not YOUR airplanes - Was: High Cost of Sportplanes

I agree.

There is probably a very big market of existing pilots who are not airplane
owners. I think there are over half a million pilots in the US, but only
about half of them own their own airplane.

I bet that almost every one of those airplane-less pilots would love to
become an owner if it wasn't such a poor value proposition. Notice I'm not
saying "if they could afford it." There are a lot of people who could afford
to own an airplane but refuse to because it is such poor value that it
offends their sensibilities. So they rent instead, or don't even bother
flying anymore.

I think sportplanes are just the thing for a lot of these people -- a nice
little Sunday flyer that is also capable of modest cross-country travel.
Cheap to buy and economical to own.

Well that was the dream anyway. But with people trying to sell you a $50,000
sportplane for $100,000, you get that same old sinking feeling again and say
"why bother?"

Regards,

Gordon.



"Jimbob" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:19:54 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
wrote:

Start with this: How many people do you know who own a $45,000 SUV?

Light Sport Aircraft are not intended for people who are already pilots.

The whole purpose of the Light Sport Certificate is to draw new people,
along with new money, into the sport side of aviation.



Maybe, but the bright businessman would understand that existing
pilots are a far more readily available source of funds until the
sportpilots start rolling in. I live in charlotte, #25 in city size
and North Carolina was the birth of powered flight. I don't know of
ANYONE who is offering sportpilot. And the planes are selling now.
Ergo, who are they selling to?

In reality, I see SP as a bust until someone gets the price down. The
potential market isn't that blame rich. They are upper-middle class.
80K is a lot of scratch. 40-50K is an extra SUV.



Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org

Gordon Arnaut wrote:
I agree.

There is probably a very big market of existing pilots who are not airplane
owners. I think there are over half a million pilots in the US, but only
about half of them own their own airplane.

I bet that almost every one of those airplane-less pilots would love to
become an owner if it wasn't such a poor value proposition. Notice I'm not
saying "if they could afford it." There are a lot of people who could afford
to own an airplane but refuse to because it is such poor value that it
offends their sensibilities. So they rent instead, or don't even bother
flying anymore.

I think sportplanes are just the thing for a lot of these people -- a nice
little Sunday flyer that is also capable of modest cross-country travel.
Cheap to buy and economical to own.

Well that was the dream anyway. But with people trying to sell you a $50,000
sportplane for $100,000, you get that same old sinking feeling again and say
"why bother?"

Regards,

Gordon.

To my knowledge, when I got my current plane and took my BFR, I was the
only functional Sport Pilot in our area (central TX). There may be
others by now, but that was back in June, I believe and the rule had
been in force since the previous sept.

I agree that the bang/buck ratio is the primary difficulty with E/SLSA.
Indeed, those manufacturers have a pretty formidable task on their
plates - convincing all these pilots to pay 80 grand for $30-40K
airplanes and creating an entire industry off doing so. That's a "tough
room" for anyone.....

Now, going back to the local SP statistics again, I know of zero SLSA
that have been bought in the local area. I've not yet seen an ELSA
either, and in fact have not even seen a "gELSA" (an uncertificated
light plane that doesn't meet part 103 that has been granted an AC under
the 'grandfathering' provision good thru 2008). The lion's share are
either already certificated light a/c that fit within the SP LSA
limitations (champs, and so on) or Exp A/B airplanes that also fit in
thos limitations (like my airplane). Well, so far my actual statistic is
only one, me, but among the other prospective SP's that I know, the
intention is to go the same route. None has any intention of buying an SLSA.

So what it really looks like to me is, as a manufacturer, SLSA makes
right at 0.00 sense at the current time. You can do a LOT better by
simply continuing to make your current kits intended for Exp A/B and
selling those to prospective Sport Pilots. Retooling cost == 0.00....

That is apparently exactly what most manufacturers are doing. Those that
don't have kits that meet the SP LSA limitations, such as Vans, seem to
be toying with the idea of kits only, with ELSA or SLSA far down on the
list of priorities.

The only cases I can think of where an SLSA would make any sense at all
would be rental and training. I think a catch-22 in such a thing has
already been noticed by someone in this thread and wrote about it....
And even there, the alternatives still seem to be better, so this isn't
going very well either.

So I think the task at this point to get something like SLSA to be
viable is an onerous one, particularly because only a little research is
needed to really discover how much airplane 80 grand can really buy you.

For sure, if someone put a gun to my head and made me spend 80 grand of
my estate on a flying machine, it dame sure isn't going to be no light
sport aircraft. Medical or no, it's going to be an RV 8 or better.... or
3,4 copies of my plane, or... you get the idea....

As I always say, Caveat Emptor.....

LS
N646F


"Jimbob" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:19:54 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
wrote:


Start with this: How many people do you know who own a $45,000 SUV?

Light Sport Aircraft are not intended for people who are already pilots.

The whole purpose of the Light Sport Certificate is to draw new people,
along with new money, into the sport side of aviation.



Maybe, but the bright businessman would understand that existing
pilots are a far more readily available source of funds until the
sportpilots start rolling in. I live in charlotte, #25 in city size
and North Carolina was the birth of powered flight. I don't know of
ANYONE who is offering sportpilot. And the planes are selling now.
Ergo, who are they selling to?

In reality, I see SP as a bust until someone gets the price down. The
potential market isn't that blame rich. They are upper-middle class.
80K is a lot of scratch. 40-50K is an extra SUV.



Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org

Also, aren't most of these birds made offshore, where labor and parts
are "so much lower than the US?"

David M.


ls wrote:

Gordon Arnaut wrote:

I agree.

There is probably a very big market of existing pilots who are not
airplane owners. I think there are over half a million pilots in the
US, but only about half of them own their own airplane.

I bet that almost every one of those airplane-less pilots would love
to become an owner if it wasn't such a poor value proposition. Notice
I'm not saying "if they could afford it." There are a lot of people
who could afford to own an airplane but refuse to because it is such
poor value that it offends their sensibilities. So they rent instead,
or don't even bother flying anymore.

I think sportplanes are just the thing for a lot of these people -- a
nice little Sunday flyer that is also capable of modest cross-country
travel. Cheap to buy and economical to own.

Well that was the dream anyway. But with people trying to sell you a
$50,000 sportplane for $100,000, you get that same old sinking feeling
again and say "why bother?"

Regards,

Gordon.


To my knowledge, when I got my current plane and took my BFR, I was the
only functional Sport Pilot in our area (central TX). There may be
others by now, but that was back in June, I believe and the rule had
been in force since the previous sept.

I agree that the bang/buck ratio is the primary difficulty with E/SLSA.
Indeed, those manufacturers have a pretty formidable task on their
plates - convincing all these pilots to pay 80 grand for $30-40K
airplanes and creating an entire industry off doing so. That's a "tough
room" for anyone.....

Now, going back to the local SP statistics again, I know of zero SLSA
that have been bought in the local area. I've not yet seen an ELSA
either, and in fact have not even seen a "gELSA" (an uncertificated
light plane that doesn't meet part 103 that has been granted an AC under
the 'grandfathering' provision good thru 2008). The lion's share are
either already certificated light a/c that fit within the SP LSA
limitations (champs, and so on) or Exp A/B airplanes that also fit in
thos limitations (like my airplane). Well, so far my actual statistic is
only one, me, but among the other prospective SP's that I know, the
intention is to go the same route. None has any intention of buying an
SLSA.

So what it really looks like to me is, as a manufacturer, SLSA makes
right at 0.00 sense at the current time. You can do a LOT better by
simply continuing to make your current kits intended for Exp A/B and
selling those to prospective Sport Pilots. Retooling cost == 0.00....

That is apparently exactly what most manufacturers are doing. Those that
don't have kits that meet the SP LSA limitations, such as Vans, seem to
be toying with the idea of kits only, with ELSA or SLSA far down on the
list of priorities.

The only cases I can think of where an SLSA would make any sense at all
would be rental and training. I think a catch-22 in such a thing has
already been noticed by someone in this thread and wrote about it....
And even there, the alternatives still seem to be better, so this isn't
going very well either.

So I think the task at this point to get something like SLSA to be
viable is an onerous one, particularly because only a little research is
needed to really discover how much airplane 80 grand can really buy you.

For sure, if someone put a gun to my head and made me spend 80 grand of
my estate on a flying machine, it dame sure isn't going to be no light
sport aircraft. Medical or no, it's going to be an RV 8 or better.... or
3,4 copies of my plane, or... you get the idea....

As I always say, Caveat Emptor.....

LS
N646F



"Jimbob" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:19:54 GMT, "Lakeview Bill"
wrote:


Start with this: How many people do you know who own a $45,000 SUV?

Light Sport Aircraft are not intended for people who are already
pilots.

The whole purpose of the Light Sport Certificate is to draw new people,
along with new money, into the sport side of aviation.



Maybe, but the bright businessman would understand that existing
pilots are a far more readily available source of funds until the
sportpilots start rolling in. I live in charlotte, #25 in city size
and North Carolina was the birth of powered flight. I don't know of
ANYONE who is offering sportpilot. And the planes are selling now.
Ergo, who are they selling to?

In reality, I see SP as a bust until someone gets the price down. The
potential market isn't that blame rich. They are upper-middle class.
80K is a lot of scratch. 40-50K is an extra SUV.



Jim

http://www.unconventional-wisdom.org

Just the labor.

AINut wrote:
Also, aren't most of these birds made offshore, where labor and parts
are "so much lower than the US?"

David M.

Hello Bill. I hope you know that if you have been denied a medical, you
will probably not be able to get a sport pilot certificate. Anyway,
this is what I have been told. Good Luck to you. Ron

"rons321" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello Bill. I hope you know that if you have been denied a medical, you
will probably not be able to get a sport pilot certificate. Anyway,
this is what I have been told. Good Luck to you.

Ron, if you were denied one time, and are able to get the medical back
again, that is all that counts. You can get it back, and not try to get it
again, then you can do the sport plane flying. No problem; just don't get
turned down, -then- try to fly under sport rules.

Clear?
--
Jim in NC