Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:46:46 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

If I understand your scenario properly, I have intercepted the FAC about
15
miles South of DEPRE and then turned inbound (to the N, towards DEPRE).
I
am at 3000'. At 5 miles from DEPRE I am cleared for the approach. I
should
be below the GP at that point so I would just continue along until
intercepting the GP, and then descend into the airport.

The presence of an aircraft behind me is irrelevant.

What is your point?


Why did you not execute the procedure turn? You've not been vectored to a
final approach course or fix, you're not an a segment marked NoPT, and
you've not been cleared for a timed approach from a holding fix. Is it not
your position that if the procedure has a PT charted it must be flown unless
one of those applies?


I would have assumed this was a "radar vectors to final" situation and
queried ATC to verify, since they didn't use the magic words that I
understand to be necessary for me to assume radar vectors. But ATC has had
me lined up with the FAC for quite some distance; I've been in radar
contact; I've been assigned an appropriate altitude to intercept the GP
from below; I've not crossed any IAF prior to DEPRE.

If that confirmation is not forthcoming, then I would inform ATC that I am
obliged to execute a procedure turn at DEPRE. I would maintain my last
assigned altitude of 3000' until crossing DEPRE.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
news

I would have assumed this was a "radar vectors to final" situation and
queried ATC to verify, since they didn't use the magic words that I
understand to be necessary for me to assume radar vectors.


Why would you have assumed it was a "radar vectors to final" situation if
they didn't use the magic words that you understand to be necessary to
assume radar vectors? You're not being vectored in this situation, that
should be clear.



But ATC has had
me lined up with the FAC for quite some distance; I've been in radar
contact; I've been assigned an appropriate altitude to intercept the GP
from below; I've not crossed any IAF prior to DEPRE.


The approach controller did nothing to line you up with the FAC. He simply
told you to intercept the FAC as your previous clearance of direct GRB
VORTAC crossed it some fifteen miles from the LOM at a shallow angle.



If that confirmation is not forthcoming, then I would inform ATC that I am
obliged to execute a procedure turn at DEPRE. I would maintain my last
assigned altitude of 3000' until crossing DEPRE.


And when they informed you that you weren't being vectored you'd proceed to
fly the PT turn, which upon completion you'd be in the exact same position.

Of course, that wouldn't happen. Upon informing ATC you felt obligated to
fly the PT they'd vector you out of the way of the following traffic. Then
they'd either vector you back to the FAC, which would prohibit flying the
PT, or send you direct to the IAF so you could happily fly your PT without
endangering anyone else.

... On initial contact you're told "descend and maintain 3,000 join the runway
36 localizer"...


As I understand things, the PT is what you do when a course reversal is
required. So, is a course reversal required here? I think not.
Therefore I would not do a PT - I'd just fly the localizer when cleared
for the approach.

When doing a PT, the manner of turn is up to the pilot (90-270,
45-180-45, racetrack, immelman). So what is special about a PT? It's
just a U-turn (within the protected area), and not even a special kind
of U-turn.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

As I understand things, the PT is what you do when a course reversal is
required. So, is a course reversal required here? I think not. Therefore
I would not do a PT - I'd just fly the localizer when cleared for the
approach.


Then you'd be in agreement with the thousands that have actually flown this
example. I've never heard of anyone that decided to fly the PT, and never
heard of anyone violated for not flying the PT.

Then you'd be in agreement with the thousands that have actually flown this
example.

Ok, now let's change the example a bit.

This time, on initial contact you're told "maintain 5,000 join the
runway 36 localizer" Then, five miles from DEPRE the approach
controller says "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one
one eight point seven."

You acknowledge, then lose coms. Dive? PT? Racetrack?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

Ok, now let's change the example a bit.

This time, on initial contact you're told "maintain 5,000 join the runway
36 localizer" Then, five miles from DEPRE the approach controller says
"AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one eight point
seven."

You acknowledge, then lose coms. Dive? PT? Racetrack?


I don't get in that position. When I'm about nine miles from DEPRE, as I'm
about to intercept the GS at 5,000', I ask the controller if I'm cleared for
the approach. He responds, "AWI123 cleared ILS runway 36 approach", and I
start down on the GS. When my comm radios mysteriously fail four miles down
the road while all my other avionics continue operating flawlessly I just
continue on a normal ILS approach and land.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Alright, here's a real world example for you. You're flying AWI123 from
KORD to KGRB, Chicago departure puts you in the east departure track on a
360 heading and hands you off to Chicago Center. Around the Kenosha, WI,
area Chicago Center tells you to proceed direct to GRB VORTAC. Down the
road a piece you're handed off to Green Bay approach. At GRB the ILS RWY 36
approach is in use, and the approach controller notices you're present track
will intercept the localizer about fifteen miles from DEPRE, the LOM/IAF.
On initial contact you're told "descend and maintain 3,000 join the runway
36 localizer". About three minutes later you hear the same instruction
issued to EGF456. When you're about five miles from DEPRE the approach
controller says "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one
eight point seven." When you reach DEPRE will you continue towards the
runway or will you start a procedure turn?

As someone who knows a couple of AWI pilots, I can tell you what they
would do. They'd point her one or two LRCH's to the left of DEPRE, peg
it a 250 kts to stay ahead of Eagle, a couple of miles from DEPRE chop
the power, deploy the airbrake, flaps, gear, some more flaps, stable at
1000', make the first turn-off, and be at the gate drinking Starbucks
while the rest of you try to make up your minds about flying a
proceedure turn or not.