Gas Prices -- Help at last?

I am reminded of you connecting the number of refineries with the capacity
to produce gasoline when there is no direct connection. You accepted this
as the "Truth" simply because you wanted to. Even when I pointed out that
gasoline production has risen by about a third in the past 20yrs (while
the number of refineries has shrunk) you continue to rant about the
"enviro-nazis" and how they have "prevented" new refineries, when the fact
is that there have been no new refineries because it is more economic to
expand production at existing refineries.

And you continually ignore the fact that this so only because of the
regulatory nightmare our own government has created.

Pay attention now, for here is the Truth, the fundemental reason why
energy is more expensive and why it will stay that way:

HERE IT IS:
****Until recently, only about 25% of the worlds population used any
meaningful amount of energy, now about 60% does.****

Of course, in the long run, energy costs must rise as more of the world
needs it. This is inevitable.

However, that doesn't change the fact that there is no reason for our own
government to accelerate this potentially disastrous economic reality.
Instead of standing in the way of oil production, they should be trying to
expand access to proven oil reserves, and they should be trying to loosen
the fetters of insane environmental lunacy so that more refineries can be
built.

Here is just one tiny, local example of this kind of environmental idiocy:
For over 30 years our airport has been trying to extend Rwy 25. For various
reasons, over that period of time, the project has started and stopped, been
delayed, shot down, and resurrected. Each time it has been brought back to
life, the EPA (and the State-level equivalents) have required a brand new
set of "environmental impact statements." I don't know the exact number,
but well over a dozen complete, multi-year EIS's have been done for this
SINGLE PROJECT, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As of last month, after several years of work, with bulldozers already
pushing dirt around, the FAA and EPA once again asked for a meeting to
"clarify the environmental goals and procedures" with the project, requiring
yet another meeting with airport commissioners, city and state officials.
This required many dozens of hours (at tax-payer expense, of course), for
the umpteen-thousandth time -- and this is for a friggin' RUNWAY EXTENSION
on land that is already owned by the airport, using plans that have been
drawn up for over three decades.

Now can you just imagine what it must take to build a refinery in this
screwed up country?

We should be supporting bills like the one proposed that streamline the
process, yet there continue to be people like you (and others in this group)
who advocate government by misdirection, stalling, and fraud. Since this
seems to go against your known personality traits, I can only guess that
you've found a way to profit from it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You still don't get it. The number of refineries doesn't matter...the
output does.

Mike
MU-2

Mike Rapoport wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:g7i2f.468745$xm3.183303@attbi_s21...

Another unfortunate conclusion is it's going to take fuel prices in
that range to make alternative energy sources widely competitive.

You make many good points, Roger, except this one. I keep reading (and
hearing) this statement over and over, from TV, radio and newspaper
commentators -- and everyone just blithely accepts it as "Truth" with a
capital "T".

Unfortunately, Europe -- supposedly home to some of the best minds in the
world -- has been subjected to gas prices two and three times what we are
currently paying, thanks to a generation of outrageous taxation. If your
statement were true, by now Europe should have developed many alternate
energy sources, rather than suffer gasoline priced at over $6.00 per
gallon.

Where are they? What are they?

The frightening answer is: There aren't any -- even at $6.00 per gallon.
The only other alternative is that Europe simply doesn't possess the
scientific and industrial wherewithal to develop them -- which seems
highly unlikely.
--



In Europe they are about twice as efficient using petroleum for
transportation as in the US. Instead of developing alternative fuels, they
have become more efficient at using existing fuels. In contrast, Brazil has
replaced about half of gasoline with ethanol (made from sugar cane), so it
can be done, it just doesn't make sense everywhere. You need a lot of land
and the right climate to produce enough bio fuels to run a modern economy.

And do biofuels really make sense, unless you are using waste products
alone. It has been a number of years since I saw a thorough analysis,
but my recollection is that grown biofuels make about as much sense as
hydrogen, given today's technology. The energy required to grow the
biofuel (corn was the topic of the analysis I read years ago), including
fuel for the farm equipment, the fertilizer, transportation to a
processing plant, and the processing energy itself made the biofuel at
best energy neutral compared to directly buring the oil used to make the
biofuel, and typically it actually used more oil to burn biofuel than to
burn the oil directly in the form of gasoline.

Maybe this equation has changed with better technology, but I really wonder.

As a subsidy to farmers, biofuel probably makes more sense than paying
them to not plant a field, but I'm not even sure about that!

Matt

In article g7i2f.468745$xm3.183303@attbi_s21,
Jay Honeck wrote:

Unfortunately, Europe -- supposedly home to some of the best minds in the
world -- has been subjected to gas prices two and three times what we are
currently paying, thanks to a generation of outrageous taxation. If your
statement were true, by now Europe should have developed many alternate
energy sources, rather than suffer gasoline priced at over $6.00 per gallon.

Where are they? What are they?

its been 6 a gallon for too little. normal prices are around 4 a gallon.
for US$4 a gallon the best technology is Diesel. 60% of new cars are
Diesel powered. Diesel is clean and cheaper.

new engines are mostly highpressure Diesels of FSI engines (gas engines
but with gas inyected inside the combusion chamber in a way simmilar
to Diesel engines).

The new 1.4liter FSI TwinCharger VW Jetta makes the same power as a 1.8t
engine on the Turbo Jetta and gets much better mileage, meeting the most
stringent emission laws..

So yes. New tech is coming. 6 dollars a gallon will make it come faster.

--
Eduardo K. | To put a pipe in byte mode,
http://www.carfun.cl | type PIPE_TYPE_BYTE.
http://e.nn.cl | (from the Visual C++ help file.)

"Eduardo K." wrote

new engines are mostly highpressure Diesels of FSI engines (gas engines
but with gas inyected inside the combusion chamber in a way simmilar
to Diesel engines).

Name some of these new engines, so we can compare what we are talking
about. If you are talking about the ones I am thinking about, the
sequential injection takes place at the intake valve, on the manifold side.
--
Jim in NC

In article ,
Morgans wrote:

"Eduardo K." wrote

new engines are mostly highpressure Diesels of FSI engines (gas engines
but with gas inyected inside the combusion chamber in a way simmilar
to Diesel engines).

Name some of these new engines, so we can compare what we are talking
about. If you are talking about the ones I am thinking about, the
sequential injection takes place at the intake valve, on the manifold side.

2.0 FSI Audi: http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/iaa/fsi/content.shtml

quote:

The FSI engine's special combustion principle is critical to its efficiency. On this engine, fuel is not injected into the intake port, but directly into the combustion chamber. The injector, which is supplied by a single-piston pump and common rail fuel line, is in the side of the cylinder head, and controls the injection time to within thousandths of a second, at injection pressures of up to 110 bar.



--
Eduardo K. | To put a pipe in byte mode,
http://www.carfun.cl | type PIPE_TYPE_BYTE.
http://e.nn.cl | (from the Visual C++ help file.)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:NpE1f.408067$_o.120015@attbi_s71...
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...

Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far
with gubmint regulations?

I'm sure the polls and bureaucrats have all the gas they can handle.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

I watched a show on the Discover Channel, how the aircraft carriers (built a
long time ago) cruise for 24 yrs. before refueling and "us" in
cars/airplanes go...6+ hours... Go figure

Pat Thronson
Babb, MT


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:NpE1f.408067$_o.120015@attbi_s71...
Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...

Did you READ the article? There hasn't been a new refinery built in the
U.S. since I was a senior in high school -- 29 years ago!

Gee, don't you think that *maybe* we might have gone a wee bit too far
with gubmint regulations?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Agreed, OT, and just another win for BIG OIL. I hope the senate has a
better handle on what subsidies look like and what profits are for...

Personally, I would much rather have Big Oil in charge of energy
development than the U.S. Senate.

Jane Fonda has promised to lead an anti-war rally next spring (!)
driving to Washington in a bus powered by soy oil. That's what we'd
have with a U.S. Senate-based energy policy: vegetable-powered busses
that take six months to get ready for a trip.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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