position and hold at an angle

he did not land "wrong", the tower cleared him to land, and had forgotten
about the one waiting for take off clearance.. sitting in the Position and
Hold

wish I could remember what year that was
BT

"Mike W." wrote in message
...
Always a good idea to approach the runway, or stop at the hold line, at an
angle that allows you a clear view of final. When I am done doing my run
up,
and I call tower and am rolling up, I do kind of an 'S' turn so I can see
for myself that there is nothing there. And I look both ways before going
out onto the runway. Yes, planes do land the wrong way occasionally, even
at
a towered facility.

--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

hOn Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:57:41 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?

I was never taught this, but I sometimes do it, most often when I want
another look at the windsock (which is directly behind me if I take
the shortest route to the runway.

What would be difficult, in a taildragger, is to turn 180 degrees and
back again. Going around is a piece of cake.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Where are older taildragger pilots taught to do a 360 to scan the pattern
prior to takeoff when instructed to position and hold? Why is this taught?

I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.
Yes, I listen to the radio and keep traffic situational awareness in
mind, but I have also "discovered" a JET making RIGHT traffic to
runway 33 at Fort Collins - Loveland airport (FNL), when the PUBLISHED
and locally-used pattern is LEFT traffic!

As I am also a local FAA Aviation Safety Counselor, I also interviewed
the crew each time on the ground. Once they were unfamiliar and they
were on the wrong frequency. Twice they were cowboys and asserted
"We're IFR, traffic patterns don't apply to us". So, I wrote
my letter to the FAA and filed an ASRS report... and they were
visited and remineded by the FAA about proper procedures.

NO, they weren't on an instrument approach they were just going to
land at the airport and scatter the little airplanes out of their way.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 234 Young Eagles!

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote:

zatatime wrote:
No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
tower.

I must say this is unsafe advice.

I've avoided being squished by landing aircraft TWICE by checking
before taking the runway at towered airports.

Always, always, always make sure no one is landing before you take any
runway. YOU are responsible, not the tower controller, for the safety
of your flight.


Exactly, I was in a commercial jet that was told to P&H on the runway.
Soon thereafter the plane taxied to the first turnoff and I saw
another plane on final. I can be on the runway and airborne
quickly. P&H is asinine. If the traffic flow is thatv busy then
build a new runway...or stagger flights better.

Ron Lee

On 11 Oct 2005 15:47:53 -0700, "Brien K. Meehan"
wrote:

zatatime wrote:
No where that I know of. At a towered airport you need trust in the
tower.

I must say this is unsafe advice.

I've avoided being squished by landing aircraft TWICE by checking
before taking the runway at towered airports.

Always, always, always make sure no one is landing before you take any
runway. YOU are responsible, not the tower controller, for the safety
of your flight.


My comments were directly related to doing 360's on an active when
issued a position and hold clearance. I didn't go through every
detail of what should occur before that clearance was issued. I too
have refused a clearance with an airplane on short final at least once
in my life. I'm not trying to start a flame war for the thread since,
as is typical in usenet, comments are made and taken out of context,
however Mike W. summed it up very well:

snip
Always a good idea to approach the runway, or stop at the hold line,
at an
angle that allows you a clear view of final. When I am done doing my
run up,
and I call tower and am rolling up, I do kind of an 'S' turn so I can
see
for myself that there is nothing there. And I look both ways before
going
out onto the runway.

As far as 360s on a position and hold clearance, I wouldn't do
it....There's a better way to see oncoming traffic than that.

z

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I was never taught this, but I sometimes do it, most often when I want
another look at the windsock (which is directly behind me if I take
the shortest route to the runway.


What does the tower say about it? Why don't you just ask the controller for
the wind?



What would be difficult, in a taildragger, is to turn 180 degrees and
back again. Going around is a piece of cake.


Turning into a stiff wind is a piece of cake. Turning around in one may be
impossible.

wrote in message ...

I do this all the time, control tower, uncontrolled... all the time.


Haw many times has the tower chewed you out for it? Who issues the position
and hold instructions at the uncontrolled airports?



As I am also a local FAA Aviation Safety Counselor,


And you advocate acting contrary to ATC instructions? Shame on you!

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

Position and hold (P&H) is an accident waiting to happen. How much
time does it take to wait at the holding line then move into position
and depart versus P&H and depart? 15 seconds?


Larger aircraft can take significantly longer. It all adds up, dropping
position and hold will significantly reduce airport capacity and cause
significant delays at busy airports.



I prefer to verify
that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
departing.


If you're uncomfortable with position and hold all you have to do is avoid
controlled airports.

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

Exactly, I was in a commercial jet that was told to P&H on the runway.
Soon thereafter the plane taxied to the first turnoff and I saw
another plane on final.


How do you know it was instructed to position and hold? Do you know why it
taxied off the runway?



I can be on the runway and airborne
quickly. P&H is asinine. If the traffic flow is thatv busy then
build a new runway...or stagger flights better.


Fine. It's your job to convince the locals they need a new runway or
convince the operators to cut flights. Have at it.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

I prefer to verify
that the approach path is clear before venturing out on the runway and
departing.

If you're uncomfortable with position and hold all you have to do is avoid
controlled airports.

As PIC, you always have the option of refusing the request from ATC.
You can simply reply with "Tower, N1234A would prefer to hold short
until cleared for departure." Of course, at a busy airport, you have to
wait a while, and you won't make any friends in the tower...


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."