Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?

[quote=tom pettit]So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
available.
tom

-------------------------

you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device. be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with all the required hardware and config though.

as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the FAF.

another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal. that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before we sailed past where we were going...

:-)

francois

"tom pettit" tompetatpeakdotorg wrote:

So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
available.
tom

Your alternate must have a non-GPS approach (unless you use WAAS).

VORs and ILS will be here forever.

Ron Lee

Here is another one I wanted to mention: AC 90-94.

"Guidelines for Using GPS Equipment for IFR En Route &
Terminal Operations & for Nonprecision Instrument Approaches
(12/14/94) (AFS-820)"

You can find it here, if you're an AOPA member:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/ac/ac90-94.pdf

On 11/18/2005 4:41 PM, Mark Hansen wrote:

On 11/18/2005 3:43 PM, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:
I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
this stuff yet.
thanks,
tom

Well, start with FAR 91.205. Specifically, 91.205 (d), and
91.205 (d) (2), where it state:

"...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground
facilities to be used".

Then, have a look at the AIM, in the section on Navigational Aids (section
1), specifically, 1-1-19 (d) (1), which talks about Authorization to conduct
any GPS operation under IFR, and later it talks about the requirements
for alternate navigation equipment.


Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.

There are some exceptions, but this should get you thinking in the
right direction. I would expect that the GPS systems that can be
used without any other nav equipment on board would be more expensive
than a TSO-129 system + standard nav gear anyway.

I hope this helps,


"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
IFR flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
just hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit

Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.

I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.

Does any of this apply to you?

If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA






--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:28:32 -0800, tom pettitpeak wrote:

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

Wow, low cost and IFR equipment in the same sentence just doesn't compute.

With that in mind, I came across a Garmin dealer who was not making their
quota and managed to get a hold of a GNS 430 radio for 6K with brand new
warranty.

My ILS nor localizer will not work for this 430 so I now have to get a new
indicator. which is another 1.5K. Installation will be about 40 hours of
work which equates to 2.8K or so. This is just for one radio, one
indicator! My second radio will not be replaced at this time, to keep
costs down.

So..... if you only have a VFR equiped plane, this should get you a
baseline for what is ahead of you.

Allen

I have the GX55 in my Bonanza. They are approx $2K plus install. You
can install it either VFR only or IFR terminal/enroute. To be legal to
accept a direct clearance you will have to get it legal for
terminal/enroute. The GPS can be finnicky and it might cost hardly
anything up to a couple thousand to get it IFR legal. There are some
tests that the shop will run to make it legal, call any avionics shop
and they will tell you what is involved.

tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:
I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit

Since the bulk of the cost is installation the actual GPS unit you
select will not have a dramatic effect on end price. A GNS430 is about
$11,000 installed here. Any other GPS is + or - $1000 or so.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Since the bulk of the cost is installation the actual GPS unit you
select will not have a dramatic effect on end price. A GNS430 is about
$11,000 installed here. Any other GPS is + or - $1000 or so.

Not necessarily. The GX55 I had in my 182 and now in the Bonanza costs
nothing to install if you replaced a loran in the process and the loran
antenna was on top of the fuselage. The expense will be in getting it
legal for IFR. An terminal/enroute only box costs far less to get legal
than an approach box.

The problem with the less expensive unit is that they require more
external hardware to install. The more expensive units (GNS530, etc)
are "all in one" IFR units. WIth the GX55 you need to install a remote
head, a remote signal light etc. When you're paying $120/hr for
avionics labor, it gets expensive real quick,

On 11/18/05 4:28 PM, in article , "tom
pettit peakorg" tompetatdot wrote:

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit


A tuna sandwich. )
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
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Tom,
Used Bendix King, Apollo, Or even Northstar if you can find it.
Like others have said the cost for installation is significant.
I installed a KLN-90B 10 years ago. At the time it had the most bells
and whistles out there and was the easiest to use. It was also the most
expensive. By today's standards it is dog meat. It has over 1000 hours
on it without a problem. Solid, reliable. You will also need a display
for annunciation's and a deviation indicator.
I chose an HSI switched between NAV 1 and the GPS. That lasted for 9
years and then I replaced it with and updated one.
Michelle

tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit