Innocent Guantanamo detainees speak out on abuse, murder.

This really has nothing to do with soaring at all Derek
and shouldn't be on this board.

At 13:18 21 November 2005, Derek Copeland wrote:
Bill, Do you realise how much the USA is hated and
despised in the rest of the World? And what goes on
in Guantamano Bay doesn't help your cause one iota!

I say this as a white, protestant, Anglo-Saxon, English
person (and a glider pilot). I was one of the estimated
2 - 3 million people who took part in the Anti-War
march in London prior to your country's invasion of
Iraq. I very much regret that we were not able to influence
our Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to withdraw his support
for this action.

This war has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, over
2000 US troops and I think about 200 UK troops. We
have recently suffered a serious terrorist attack in
London, probably directly as a result of our Government's
support for the war and America.

And for what purpose? No weapons of mass destruction
have been found. The lot of the general population
of Iraq is much worse now than it was before, even
with Saddam Hussain out of power. I can only think
that this war was prompted by a desire for revenge
for the attack on the World Trade Centre, but as far
as I can see, there is little evidence that Iraq was
involved in this plot, dreadful though it was.

Your country is supposed to represent freedom and democracy,
but since you elected that bumbling idiot George W.
Bush, your ideals seem to have gone down the tubes.
Please thing what you are doing. If the USA as the
most powerful country in the World won't comply with
UN resolutions, why should any other country?

Sorry, not strictly related to gliding, but I just
ask you to think about what is going on in the World.
You may feel safe in your huge and geographically isolated
country, but we in Europe don't. There have also been
major terrorist attacks in other European countries,
especially Spain, where I also go gliding.

Derek Copeland

At 11:36 21 November 2005, Bill wrote:
Dear tw
What has this to do with soaring?
I await your reply.
Bill Hatfield-my real name.
tw wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...1646014,00.htm

l

Note the disturbing parallel between the Nazi camp
guards humilation of Jews
by the desecration of the trappings of their religion
(e.g. forcing them to
wear underclothing made from cut up prayer shawls
etc) and the Guantamo
regime:

'When they handed out Korans to us in Bagram I remember
seeing the Americans
passing them through the airlocks and throwing them
onto the ground. People
might think that well, its just a book, but if you
believe like you do as a
Muslim that this is the unadulterated revealed speech
of God and it is the
most sacred thing that a Muslim would have in his
house. To see them do that
for me brought about a sense of complete desperation,'

Of course, such dehumanisation and contempt for your
captives is necessary
if you'r egoing to have to shovel them into a gas
oven one day..

'And it was of course part of the dehumanising process
again. And one of the
guards there of that unit told me when I used to have
discussions with them,
that when we see you people we can't look at you as
human beings. Our psyche
does not allow us to do that - because if we did we
wouldn't treat you this
way. It's easy for us to dehumanise you. First of
all most of you guys don't
speak the same language. Secondly, you look different.
Thirdly, you're
dressed different. Fourthly, you're in cages and we're
out here with the
guns.
The people who claim to be the upholders and defenders
of freedom are
debating now whether it is legitimate to use torture.
After all of what the
world has been through arguing against the fact. And
if it does in one way
or another become legitimised, either mental torture
or physical or
psychological, which has been clearly used by several
countries, then I
think the world will spiral into something that nobody
will be able to
control.'

Mark Dickson wrote:
This really has nothing to do with soaring at all Derek
and shouldn't be on this board.

snip naughty OT posts with an s.

No doubt man, but you didn't have to quote the whole damn thing!

Shawn

At 23:36 21 November 2005, Bill wrote:
Dear Derek
Every man is entitled to his opinion. No man is entitled
to be wrong in
his facts.
Were you to click on you would see why I did not vote
for that bumbling idiot.
Regards
Bill Hatfield
----------------
Bill,

I guess from your E-mail address that you must be from
the land of Shelaghs, Sheep, Kangaroos, Holden cars
and decent gliding weather (unlike the UK). Fair dinkum
cobber.

Cheers,
Derek C

Derek old mate
You`re dead right there,espescially about the weather.
If you ever foregoe those rainy plains and drop into Oz a Duo or a Lak
will be at your disposal and we can sort out the worlds problems over a
bottle of Bundaberg Rum-after the gliding.
Regards
Bill

Please take your French-quoting, pinko-commie views to the proper
forum. This is not that forum. This is the soaring forum. That's as
simple as I can make it.

Jack Womack
my real name

Derek Copeland wrote:

Bill,

I guess from your E-mail address that you must be from
the land of Shelaghs, Sheep, Kangaroos, Holden cars
and decent gliding weather (unlike the UK). Fair dinkum
cobber.

Another well-argued, thought-provoking, British contribution to the
discussion.

Where DO they get these people from???

GC

Cheers,
Derek C

At 14:42 22 November 2005, Paul wrote:

'Somehow I can't imagine
that flying a Duo Discus into the Houses of Parliament
would do all that much damage!'
True, but how about the 100 kg of high explosives strapped
in the back seat? Hmmmm, what an attack platform,
stealthy, hard to see and joy to fly. Any terrorist
would kill to use it.
--------------------
Please don't say things like that Paul, or the cost
of our insurance will go up even more.

So far I haven't had any students of Middle-Eastern
appearance asking to learn how to fly gliders, but
not how to land them!

I believe that one of the 9/11 pilots told a flying
school in the States precisely that for a Boeing 757.
That surely ought to have rang a few alarm bells, as
suicide missions are the only flights where an ability
to land is not really necessary!

Cheers,
Del Copeland

Derek Copeland wrote:
At 14:42 22 November 2005, Paul wrote:

'Somehow I can't imagine
that flying a Duo Discus into the Houses of Parliament
would do all that much damage!'

True, but how about the 100 kg of high explosives strapped
in the back seat? Hmmmm, what an attack platform,

stealthy, hard to see and joy to fly. Any terrorist
would kill to use it.
--------------------
Please don't say things like that Paul, or the cost
of our insurance will go up even more.

Glad I did not mention the nitroglycerine in the wing tanks then ...

On a more serious note though, I do not think that the interested
parties need to learn anything from me. I am sure that the leaders are
a highly intelligent lot (if misguided, in my view) and can figure it
all out for them selves. If not, they can pickup any number of books
written by respected authors that will give them far better ideas then I
will. Meticulously researched howtos can be found in number of popular
books. Was there not a book by Tom Clancy where someone flew a 747 into
Capitol Hill?

And sorry about the rather nasty tone of my initial e-mail.

Cheers

Paul







So far I haven't had any students of Middle-Eastern
appearance asking to learn how to fly gliders, but
not how to land them!

I believe that one of the 9/11 pilots told a flying
school in the States precisely that for a Boeing 757.
That surely ought to have rang a few alarm bells, as
suicide missions are the only flights where an ability
to land is not really necessary!

Cheers,
Del Copeland