I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

C.D.Damron wrote:

"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
. com...

If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.


You don't have to design and market a helicopter to understand that you
should probably design and test your product adequately before selling it.
Call me old fashioned, but that is how I think it should be done, especially
if lives are at stake.

I'm sure Denise recognizes that lives are at risk. Looks like he is
marketing special bags for Mini-500 pilots.
http://tinyurl.com/8jfcv

C.D.Damron wrote:
especiallyif lives are at stake.

Denise Mohammad Bin Farris Al Fetters AKA Planeman don't give a sh*t
about lives. He would have continued on if people let him. He's still
designing more if you're game enough to buy them.

In article _jMkf.602344$_o.270005@attbi_s71,
"C.D.Damron" wrote:

"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
. com...
If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.

You don't have to design and market a helicopter to understand that you
should probably design and test your product adequately before selling it.
Call me old fashioned, but that is how I think it should be done, especially
if lives are at stake.

Maybe you "should," but if that were the business model prevalent in the
real world today, Microsoft wouldn't be who they are. Imagine a product
or service that needs to be "patched' every three days or so being
successful in the market place. Utterly incomprehensible to Mac users
and other men of proper wit. Snake oil goes by a lot of different
monikers in different industries, but it isn't likely to be pulled off
the shelves any time soon. Caveat Emptor.

While I have the virtual floor, I'll add that I don't know anything
about Mr. Fetters or his products, but since neither he nor his
detractors seem able to discuss the issues like gentlemen, I put little
credence in anything said here on this topic. That's unfortunate,
because while I might have learned something interesting if not useful,
all I've gained is another confirmation that flared nostrils do not win
friends and influence people.

C.D.Damron wrote:
"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
. com...

If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.


You don't have to design and market a helicopter to understand that you
should probably design and test your product adequately before selling it.


No you don't... if you don't care if you succeed or not. The kitbuilt
industry tests as much as it can afford before shipping product. If it
were not for advanced sales, there would be no kitbuilt industry.
Advanced sales is what any new kitbuilt company relies on to develop and
manufacture their product. It is a fact of the industry. RHCI tested
even more than most companies tested, and we continued testing until the
day we closed.


Call me old fashioned, but that is how I think it should be done, especially
if lives are at stake.

You are old fashion...... So am I. I think that is the way it should be
done too. But, nothing moves without the money. If you want an
alternative to certified aviation which offers kit aircraft at low
prices, then the only solution is advanced sales, and less non-certified
test time.

C.D., think about it..... If a company that wants to setup and
manufacture a helicopter spent 2 years to design and develop the
aircraft, how much will it cost?

Well, if it has only 5 employees and a moderate sized building, they
would spend about $400,000 in wages alone, and about $60,000 on renting
and fixed overhead. Cost of equipment will be around $25,000. Material
and parts will be around $50,000, if you're lucky. If you don't crash
the first flight or make any costly mistakes, you just spent $535,000,
and now you have something that just flew today.

Take another year and a half to test and modify, while your setting up
production tooling and building parts to reach a goal of shipping 5 kits
weekly, you will spend another $300,000 in wages, $45,000 in rent and
fixed overhead, and maybe another $20,000 in modifications, if you're
lucky. You just spent another $365,000, totaling $900,000 and you
haven't shipped nothing yet.

Now you are ready to ship, but wait, what about the parts to ship? They
were not for free! To end up with only 50 aircraft sitting on the
shelves, a mire 10 weeks worth of inventory to ship, you had to spend
around $1,050,000. What, you think the vendors were going to let you pay
later? HAH!!!

One other thing. You can't put 50 aircraft worth of parts on the shelves
with only 5 people in a modest sized shop. It takes a factory of around
52 people and 24,000 sq. ft. You had to hire, train and pay these people
over the last 4 months. With an average shop wage of only $30,000 a
year, rent of around $16,000 and around $40,000 to outfit the building.
That last 4 months just cost you $576,000.

So, here we are, shipping our fist aircraft today that we sold for
$28,000!!! You have invested $2,526,000.

Wait, lets step back to when we had only 5 employees and a modest sized
shop, where you were spending only $267,500 a year. Now you want to test
for 2000 hours after you spent $535,000 just to get where you can fly
something. If you fly 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, you can log 1,300
hours in a year. So at this rate, you will take 19 months, say 2 years
because you have to disassemble and inspect every 50 hours. Lets say you
don't crash of even have to redesign anything. BANG!! You just spent
another $535,000 and got away cheep.

So, you got 2000 hours of testing under your belt at a cost of
$1,070,000. Now you're ready to sell something, or are you one of these
type of people that would start selling something before you had a
factory to produce it with??

C.D., if you don't think these numbers are real, then go out there and
do it yourself, and see.

Yes, we're old fashion, you and I. The big difference between us is,
I've done the above, and you have not.

We live in the real world, and people that have not designed and
manufactured their own helicopter could never comprehend what it takes
to do so. You may think you do, wish you did, but you don't, yet you so
easily judge.


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

Bin Fetters wrote:
Just like many commercial helicopters that also had premature failures
(and that did test 2000 hours), including the R-22 and R-44, some of our
components did not make it to the designed life.

We had some quality control issues, as well as any new company with a
product. Look at the R-22 and R-44 problems, and those were certified
helicopters!

Your designs will never EVER be in the same league as that of Frank
Robinson's and NONE of your designs made it even CLOSE to 2000 hours.

I don't have much time to research your "time line" for accuracy, I'm to
busy on other projects. But, assuming you are correct, and the dates you
have sounds about right to me, here are some answers:


C.D.Damron wrote:
Dennis, in separate posts, you have provided the info required to establish
a timeline that shows you were more concerned with marketing than testing.


You obviously have never designed, tested, manufactured and sold
aircraft, or you would know better as to the balance it takes in the
kitbuilt industry to accomplish such a goal.

Yes, the purpose of the project was to sell and deliver kitbuilt
helicopters. What a surprise, eh? We are not certified, can't charge
certified prices, and don't have funding that it takes to test to
certified levels. That's why there is "certified aircraft" and "kitbuilt
experimental aircraft".

Are you really a fool that don't understand the kitbuilt market? We
tested for as long as we financially could, and for as long as the
customers would tolerate. It was finally up to the customers when we had
to freeze the design, because it became clear they would not wait any
longer. We were at a point where we had solved all the design problems,
tested to the point where we were having no immediate foreseeable
problems, and then started manufacturing. That is what most all kitbuilt
manufacturer have to do.

Besides, let's not forget the fact that even what little problems the
Mini-500 did have in customers hands;

1. We fixed those problems for free or at cost.
2. We still had less problems than certified helicopters had at
introductions.
3. We never had a crash due to a failed part that was properly installed
and maintained.
4. We never had a crash due to poor flying characteristics, in fact we
had excellent flying characteristics.

Could we have been even better? Absolutely, if we would have had all of
our experience and knowledge in advance. But, we did very well, even
considering it was our first helicopter project, we succeeded when most
all other failed.


In the Summer of 1992, the Mini-500 showed up at Oshkosh, but that aircraft
didn't have its 40 hours flown off yet. Whether this was the first Mini or
not, the timeline suggests that Fetters designed and tested his new design
in a year and half, or less.


That seems to be right.

I started in December - January 1990.


Sometime in 1992, brochures were in circulation stating non-engine TBO's of
2000+ hours. By October of 1992, Revolution reported at least 150 orders
had been placed.


No, we started saying we were designing the components to a 2000 hour
life back in mid 1990.

Dude, I had 50 orders before I even finished the first aircraft. After I
flew it for the first time sometime in 1991, I had over 100 orders.


I'm not sure when the first Mini-500's shipped, but it is clear that the
sales effort was on before the design was completed and TBO claims were
advertised that had not been tested.


You are correct. Welcome to the kitbuilt world. That is how it is done.


By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial
#0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with
the most time.


Sounds correct.


Dennis, when Revolution had 150 orders, how many hours did your high time
aircraft have???


I can't remember without looking it up, and I don't have that much time.
But, if it were around 50 to 100 hours would not surprise me. But, by
the time we started shipping kits, we had well more than double that, as
I remember.

The point you are trying to make is that I had the audacity to actually
take orders for the Mini-500 before it was fully tested!!! OH MY GOD!!!!

Well, wake up Mr. Darmon and smell the aviation fuel! That is how the
kitbuilt market works. Don't like it? Stay away from it!


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

"Dennis Fetters" wrote

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

Are they all deathtraps or only the Mini-500?

I don't think he's been able to sell anything since the 500 fiasco.

Flyingmonk wrote:

I don't think he's been able to sell anything since the 500 fiasco.


This shows just how ignorant you really are. Just because I learned my
lesson to not sell to the kitbuilt market, don't mean I stopped
developing, building and selling. Hell, I got customers with money I'm
selling to now. It's amazing how price separates the quality of
customers you get. Not true for everyone, I did have many really good
customers that could never afford to own a helicopter until I came out
with the Mini-500.

Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

Denise wrote:
This shows just how ignorant you really are. Just because I learned my
lesson to not sell to the kitbuilt market, don't mean I stopped
developing, building and selling. Hell, I got customers with money I'm
selling to now. It's amazing how price separates the quality of
customers you get. Not true for everyone, I did have many really good
customers that could never afford to own a helicopter until I came out
with the Mini-500.

Prove it! Who did you sell what to? Are they ready to die?