Private Planes: Freedom, Security, and Responsibility

Regarding security, I think you ask the $99 question: "What reasonable
standard exists to protect the public without infringing too much on
the right of the law-abiding?" Trade-offs suck, but when we have
psychotic terrorists killing our citizens, using our "freedoms" to their
twisted advantage, I think everyone would agree that their needs to be
some restrictions on personal liberty.

It's "there needs to be". Spelling aside, I do =not= agree with this at
all. It is the price of freedom. Freedom disappears long before
security appears.

My criticisms of GA are limited mostly to complete lack of community
control over any aspect of airport operations at many facilities.

If every town set its own flight rules, flying would become so
impractical as to disappear. Noise rules =are= a kind of flight rules.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Skylune" wrote in message
Regarding security, I think you ask the $99 question: "What reasonable
standard exists to protect the public without infringing too much on
the right of the law-abiding?" Trade-offs suck, but when we have
psychotic terrorists killing our citizens, using our "freedoms" to their
twisted advantage, I think everyone would agree that their needs to be
some restrictions on personal liberty.

Only nut cases like you would think such a thing.

Skylune wrote:

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

Nearly every pilot, with the exception of a few military types are
trained at GA schools. Ya gotta start somewhere. Nobody is going
to let you fly an airliner first.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

And what about the INS who failed to oversee the visas properly.
Or the FAA to even pretend to scrutinize the existing watch lists
against the airline manifests.

Or the airport security at Dulles and Newark?

by Ron Natalie Dec 14, 2005 at 04:35 PM


Skylune wrote:

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

Nearly every pilot, with the exception of a few military types are
trained at GA schools. Ya gotta start somewhere. Nobody is going
to let you fly an airliner first.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

And what about the INS who failed to oversee the visas properly.
Or the FAA to even pretend to scrutinize the existing watch lists
against the airline manifests.

Or the airport security at Dulles and Newark?

I agree with your statements and the sentiment of your questions. No
reasonable person wants to "stop" GA or GA flight schools. I certainly
don't.

We want them to be good neighbors. In my current case, they are not, and
hide behind FARs, anonimity provided by the planes, etc. In fact, I have
been threatened with harrassment, and worse, by certain of the pilots just
for raising the point that the Part 150 recommendations were never
implemented, and are routinely ignored. So now I am ****ed, and will
pursue any legal means to make THEIR lives a bit more difficult.

When I lived a few miles away from FRG, we did not experience any of these
problems. Sure there was some noise, but it was not a big deal because
that airport took noise abatement and neighborliness more seriously. (When
I did my short lived training years back at FRG, the instructor always
stuck to the published arrival/departure procedures, avoiding residential
areas.) Rarely, if ever, was my home buzzed, despite my proximity to a
very busy GA airport.

Sadly, that is not the case everywhere, as I now have the misfortune of
knowing first hand.

("Skylune" wrote)
I'm fairly certain that new security requirements have been established
for foreign-born trainees.

I'm not buying the McVeigh/Ryder truck analogy. I'm pretty sure that
people purchasing large quantities of nitrogen based products such as
fertilizer face some type of restrictions or scrutiny today, but I'm not
sure.


The 9-11 terrorists were turned in, by GA, to the FBI and other gov't
agencies with "security requirements." All of this was prior to 9-11. These
various gov't agencies dropped the ball - tripped up by their internal
"security requirements."

GA across the country said - Hey, these guys don't seem right ......nothing.

As far as your other hopeful belief in gov't protecting you, I used to sell
the stuff you're talking about - and deliver it. It is very easy to get your
hands on it, in bag or bulk. Pre-9-11 and post 9-11.


Montblack

Skylune wrote:

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

IIRC, 2 of the Atta crew flew into Logan from Maine (Portland?). I
assume
they cleared in Maine, and were inside the "secure area" in Logan after
landing
and transfering to their 767.

Then there's Egypt Air 990, which went to the bottom of the Atlantic.

JG

wrote in message
ups.com...

Skylune wrote:

To clarify, I did not say GA was "responsible." I said that GA schools
provided the training.

There is plenty of blame to go around, with most falling on FBI
bureacracy, and airport "security" at Logan IMO.

IIRC, 2 of the Atta crew flew into Logan from Maine (Portland?). I
assume
they cleared in Maine, and were inside the "secure area" in Logan after
landing
and transfering to their 767.

Then there's Egypt Air 990, which went to the bottom of the Atlantic.

JG

A little different though as the plane was (reportedly) stuffed by a
legitimate badge-wearing crew member.

Jay B

They may have trained at flight schools in the USA, but did
they learn how to do it here? Are the restrictions
effective? On the same line of reasoning...
The shoe bomber was trying to use matches to light a fuse in
his shoes...When was the last time you heard about a
terrorist bomber who did not have a 9 volt battery and a
switch to set their bomb off? The shoe bomber was not
intended to blow up the airplane, his task was to yank out
chain and make us take our shoes off.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Skylune" wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
| by " Dec 14,
2005 at 11:49
| AM
|
|
| Come on, Sky-buffoon...
|
| snip
| I suspect anybody with a (then) current copy of MS Flight
Sim could
| have done what the terrorist monkeys did after a few hours
flying a 737
| around in VR - it ain't rocket science.
|
| I also "suspect" this could have been done with MS Flight
Sim. But, that
| is not what really happened. Fact: The terrorists
trained at GA schools.
|
|
| I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again:
"Facts are stubborn
| things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations,
or the dictates
| of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and
evidence."
|
|
|
|
|

"Skylune" wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

Snipola
I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again: "Facts are stubborn
things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates
of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Pot - kettle - black.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
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by Skywise into@[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dec 14, 2005 at 11:01 PM


"Skylune" live-ski-or-die@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote in
news:41fa639112b9db427c25872b82d6d0ba@[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I need to pull out the handy John Adams quote again: "Facts are
stubborn
things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the
dictates
of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Pot - kettle - black.

Brian

Name a single example of factual misstatement. One.