Landing Checklist

Somehow, I am comforted to know that my commercial transatlantic flight
captain with 15,000 hours and a copilot still uses a checklist before
landing, even though everything is normal procedure for him or her.

wrote:
Somehow, I am comforted to know that my commercial transatlantic flight
captain with 15,000 hours and a copilot still uses a checklist before
landing, even though everything is normal procedure for him or her.

When I fly power (mostly the Skylane that I own a small piece of), I use
written checklists too and wouldn't consider otherwise as there are many
items that need attention. Glider cockpits are simpler and mnemonic
checklists work for me - YMMV.

Tony V

Sure, and in my 2000 hours in F-4s my pilot and I always used a
checklist before landing - but it was for items that needed to be setup
or checked to ensure a safe landing - not basic airmanship issues! If
I recall correctly, the pre-landing checks for the F-4 was Gear - down,
Flaps - full down, Hydraulic pressures - good, Warning lights - check,
Anti-skid - On. Nothing about speed to fly based on fuel weight, wind,
pattern, use of the speed brakes to slow down, etc. - these are part of
the landing procedure and did not need a checklist.

There was a Descent checklist that was accomplished during the initial
descent to take care of the administrative cleanup of the cockpit -
such things as fuel on internal tanks, cabin pressure, altimeter
settings, etc. that was meant to ensure the jet was configured for an
approach. Most of the glider "landing checklists" fit better in this
category - and as such should be accomplished BEFORE entering the
pattern. Used this way, they make sense. I just don't think they are
useful or appropriate while in the pattern - by then it's too late or
even counterproductive!

In my case, I use Wind Water Wheels when I'm about 4 miles out, and
have to decide on the pattern direction, speed to fly based on winds
and ballast, whether to drop ballast or not, etc. Also which way the
gear handle works, if flying a new ship (a low downwind is NOT the time
to be guessing which way is down!). It's my cue to put my brain in
Land mode, and clean up the cockpit prior to setting up for the landing
evolution.

In the pattern, I concentrate on lookout and conditions, and configure
the ship on downwind - gear, flaps as required by wind, spoilers. And
fly the pattern as needed. I do not go through a checklist at that
point - it's too distracting.

And I recheck the Gear when I roll out on final. Flaps are really
optional in my ship, and spoilers are obvious!

Works for me so far - YMMV, of course.

Kirk
66

wrote:
Sure, and in my 2000 hours in F-4s my pilot and I always used a
checklist before landing - but it was for items that needed to be setup
or checked to ensure a safe landing - not basic airmanship issues! If
I recall correctly, the pre-landing checks for the F-4 was Gear - down,
Flaps - full down, Hydraulic pressures - good, Warning lights - check,
Anti-skid - On. Nothing about speed to fly based on fuel weight, wind,
pattern, use of the speed brakes to slow down, etc. - these are part of
the landing procedure and did not need a checklist.

There was a Descent checklist that was accomplished during the initial
descent to take care of the administrative cleanup of the cockpit -
such things as fuel on internal tanks, cabin pressure, altimeter
settings, etc. that was meant to ensure the jet was configured for an
approach. Most of the glider "landing checklists" fit better in this
category - and as such should be accomplished BEFORE entering the
pattern. Used this way, they make sense. I just don't think they are
useful or appropriate while in the pattern - by then it's too late or
even counterproductive!


I am with you. I think that this obsessiveness over checklists can be
downright dangerous. Do you REALLY need a checklist that tells you to
look out of the cockpit? What are you NOT DOING while you are reading
this checklist?

I watched a guy land gear up last summer. He explained that the pattern
became crowded and he didn't have time to go down his checklist. Maybe
he needs another checklist that tells him to check the first list!

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

I'm baffled by any checklist that has the most important
item or two anywhere but the TOP.

For different aircraft, it may be different, but surely
a prioritized list (with the very critical items at
the top AND in the flow again later) gives a better
result, if you MUST use a long checklist.

At 21:12 28 December 2005, wrote:

wrote:
Sure, and in my 2000 hours in F-4s my pilot and I
always used a
checklist before landing - but it was for items that
needed to be setup
or checked to ensure a safe landing - not basic airmanship
issues! If
I recall correctly, the pre-landing checks for the
F-4 was Gear - down,
Flaps - full down, Hydraulic pressures - good, Warning
lights - check,
Anti-skid - On. Nothing about speed to fly based
on fuel weight, wind,
pattern, use of the speed brakes to slow down, etc.
- these are part of
the landing procedure and did not need a checklist.

There was a Descent checklist that was accomplished
during the initial
descent to take care of the administrative cleanup
of the cockpit -
such things as fuel on internal tanks, cabin pressure,
altimeter
settings, etc. that was meant to ensure the jet was
configured for an
approach. Most of the glider 'landing checklists'
fit better in this
category - and as such should be accomplished BEFORE
entering the
pattern. Used this way, they make sense. I just don't
think they are
useful or appropriate while in the pattern - by then
it's too late or
even counterproductive!


I am with you. I think that this obsessiveness over
checklists can be
downright dangerous. Do you REALLY need a checklist
that tells you to
look out of the cockpit? What are you NOT DOING while
you are reading
this checklist?

I watched a guy land gear up last summer. He explained
that the pattern
became crowded and he didn't have time to go down his
checklist. Maybe
he needs another checklist that tells him to check
the first list!

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

There is no 100% guaranteed method of avoiding gear
up landings, but a pre-landing checklist and warning
devices help. You don't hear of many commercial jet
transports landing gear up!

When I learnt to fly I was taught a 'downwind' check
(UFSTALL). My so far one and only gear up landing occured
on a marginal scrape back to the airfield, when I was
so low that I had to join the circuit straight onto
base leg. No downwind leg equalled no checklist and
me forgetting to lower the wheel. Fortunately as in
Martin's case no damage done, as I made a decent landing
on smooth grass.

Derek Copeland
-------------------------

At 20:36 05 January 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:

That's important too. My only wheel-up was because
I'd forgotten to
raise the wheel but did remember to move the lever
during landing
preparations....

..... fortunately it was a good greaser landing in
a Discus I. Thanks to
the CG hook being proud and the grass smooth I didn't
even scratch the
gel coat.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Reference FAA Glider Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-13) published in
2003...
page 7-34

FAA recommended checklist for the traffic pattern FUSTALL

F - Flaps (on some gliders you may not want to change the flaps
throughout the pattern due to high forces)
U - Undercarriage
S - Speeds (based upon wind and sink expected)
T - Trim Set
A - Airbrakes / Spoilers (I have had occurrences where one popped all
the way out when first opened.. I'd like to know that on downwind!
(ASW-17 .. Yes the hotelier fittings were pinned!!), also on the 2-33 -
if the handle goes all the way back against the stop the brake will not
work, etc..)
L - Lookout (Safe landing area.. otherwise land somewhere else)
L - Land

I have over 4000 hrs in gliders of all kinds, probably 1/2 of that
instructing around the country, and am a test pilot for many years. I
still mentally use a checklist, especially after long (10hr+) flights.
The object is to train the student in preparation for other ratings as
well. A checklist does not prevent one from using judgement, rather ..
it is a tool.

By the way I flew F-4s (all models) for 20 yrs USAF.


E. Douglas Whitehead wrote:
WWUFSTAALLL

W-WIND
W-WATER
U-UNDERCARRAGE
F-FLAPS
S-SPEED
T-TRIM
A-AIRBRAKES
A-ANNOUNCE
L-LOOK
L-LOOK
L-LOOK

I trim the A/B speed and from base to final
I may reduce the A/B and keep the nose down
particularly if it is turbulant.

I trim the Landing Flap speed with the nose
down.

Doug Whitehead (EDW)

At 15:24 06 January 2006, Jettester wrote:
Reference FAA Glider Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-13)
published in
2003...
page 7-34

FAA recommended checklist for the traffic pattern
FUSTALL

F - Flaps (on some gliders you may not want to change
the flaps
throughout the pattern due to high forces)
U - Undercarriage
S - Speeds (based upon wind and sink expected)
T - Trim Set
A - Airbrakes / Spoilers (I have had occurrences where
one popped all
the way out when first opened.. I'd like to know that
on downwind!
(ASW-17 .. Yes the hotelier fittings were pinned!!),
also on the 2-33 -
if the handle goes all the way back against the stop
the brake will not
work, etc..)
L - Lookout (Safe landing area.. otherwise land somewhere
else)
L - Land

I have over 4000 hrs in gliders of all kinds, probably
1/2 of that
instructing around the country, and am a test pilot
for many years. I
still mentally use a checklist, especially after long
(10hr+) flights.
The object is to train the student in preparation for
other ratings as
well. A checklist does not prevent one from using
judgement, rather ..
it is a tool.

By the way I flew F-4s (all models) for 20 yrs USAF.

I like your FUSTALL. One point about the spoilers,
once you crack em
open, don't lock em again or you are right back where
you started. The
good thing about aviation is, we haven't left one up
there yet. I guess the
last 'L' makes it official. You will land.
The first bragger has no chance. How about 21,000+
hrs in everything
from J3s H13s to B747-400s? Let's here it from all
those airline types.
Yeh,Yeh Big deal.
Chuck

I guess they will all serve their purpose, but I can
never understand checklists that include things that
you will do anyway. Speed - surely we don't need a
check to fly at the correct speed. Trim - don't we
all adjust the trim when we change attitude/speed.
Lookout and land - you're not telling us you wouldn't
lookout and check the landing area and actually land
without having it in a checklist? Checklists should,
IMO, only include things that you physically need to
do prior to landing. Waterballast should be in there,
you're more likely to need a reminder to dump it than
you are a reminder to do the things you should always
be doing anyway; like looking out, flying at an appropriate
speed and trimming.



At 15:24 06 January 2006, Jettester wrote:

FAA recommended checklist for the traffic pattern
FUSTALL

F - Flaps (on some gliders you may not want to change
the flaps
throughout the pattern due to high forces)
U - Undercarriage
S - Speeds (based upon wind and sink expected)
T - Trim Set
A - Airbrakes / Spoilers (I have had occurrences where
one popped all
the way out when first opened.. I'd like to know that
on downwind!
(ASW-17 .. Yes the hotelier fittings were pinned!!),
also on the 2-33 -
if the handle goes all the way back against the stop
the brake will not
work, etc..)
L - Lookout (Safe landing area.. otherwise land somewhere
else)
L - Land

"Mark Dickson" wrote in message
...
I guess they will all serve their purpose, but I can
never understand checklists that include things that
you will do anyway. Speed - surely we don't need a
check to fly at the correct speed. Trim - don't we
all adjust the trim when we change attitude/speed.
Lookout and land - you're not telling us you wouldn't
lookout and check the landing area and actually land
without having it in a checklist? Checklists should,
IMO, only include things that you physically need to
do prior to landing. Waterballast should be in there,
you're more likely to need a reminder to dump it than
you are a reminder to do the things you should always
be doing anyway; like looking out, flying at an appropriate
speed and trimming.

The above makes sense; but while we are at it, I feel that the landing
checklist should not include things that the glider does not need. When we
teach a new student a generic landing check such as USTALL or some such and
there is no handle in the glider marked "Undercarrage", then what are we really
teaching the student? Answer: we are teaching the student to mouth
"Undercarrage" and then do nothing! Given the law of primacy, we are setting
them up for a future wheels-up accident. For this reason, the landing checklist
should be specific to the glider and probably posted in the cockpit.

Vaughn





At 15:24 06 January 2006, Jettester wrote:

FAA recommended checklist for the traffic pattern
FUSTALL

F - Flaps (on some gliders you may not want to change
the flaps
throughout the pattern due to high forces)
U - Undercarriage
S - Speeds (based upon wind and sink expected)
T - Trim Set
A - Airbrakes / Spoilers (I have had occurrences where
one popped all
the way out when first opened.. I'd like to know that
on downwind!
(ASW-17 .. Yes the hotelier fittings were pinned!!),
also on the 2-33 -
if the handle goes all the way back against the stop
the brake will not
work, etc..)
L - Lookout (Safe landing area.. otherwise land somewhere
else)
L - Land