Newbie holding questions

Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven P. McNicoll ]
Posted At: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:59 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Newbie holding questions
Subject: Newbie holding questions


"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. net...

Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only
talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of
holds.
Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always
include and EFC time?


I'm talking about all holds in which no delay is expected. The
example I
provided was an enroute hold but FAAO 7110.65 does not differentiate
between
enroute holds where no delay is expected and holds at an IAF where no
delay
is expected.

Jim Carter wrote:
Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?

I'm not Steve.

I don't think the answer to this question has anything to do with Steve's
distinction relating to holds where a delay is or is not expected.

In the case you postulate, where voice communication is lost and you have a
flight plan that includes an initial approach fix, the regulations require you
to do exactly as you say you were taught: hold at the last assigned altitude
until your filed arrival time.

Regulations notwithstanding, there is a consensus among pilots and controllers
that a better idea is to just get out of the system as soon as you can. If VMC,
land as soon as practical (which is what the regulations require anyway) and if
IMC, just go ahead and execute the approach or do whatever it takes to get out
of the IFR system. ATC has been tracking your NORDO target and is reserving a
big patch of airspace for you. The sooner you get on the ground and they can
release that airspace, the happier everyone will be. Google for numerous
previous threads in this newsgroup on this subject.

All of the above has nothing to do with paper stops or assigned holds with and
without an expected delay. I'm not going to to get in the middle of that one.
I'll let Steve or someone else speak to that question.

Dave

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. net...

Steve, help me understand the following scenario:

I'm filed and cleared from KROG to KTUL with a filed ETA of 13:40. If I
lose voice communications prior to arrival am I to understand that I'm
technically cleared to execute the approach immediately upon arrival
regardless of my time over the FAF?

I think I was taught to proceed to the FAF and then hold at the last
assigned altitude until my filed arrival time, at which point I can
execute the approach. Now I'm sure I'd rather shoot the approach as soon
as I get there, but is that the correct thing to do?

Based on your comments about EFCs not being required if no delay is
anticipated regardless of enroute or terminal, what should I expect in
the above scenario?


That's is an entirely different situation.

The OP's questions were about assigned holds. Jim Macklin stated that an
EFC should always be part of a hold clearance. I pointed out that an EFC is
not issued when no delay is expected. In your scenario above you're never
instructed to hold, your clearance limit remains KTUL throughout your
flight.

I obtained my cfii about a year ago last September. It seems that during
every every flight I find something new and different from my past
training and experience. My tale today concerns practing holds in
controlled airspace.

We filed for local hold/approach practice in the CAK area (class c). We
had just completed intercept and hold over the vor and were cleared direct
to the ndb. Our clearance was delayed due to traffic increases and we did
not hear back from atc until we were about two miles from the fix
(constant atc chatter). The clearance stated "I have continuous traffic
west of the ndb, hold east".

Our intercept was approximately 270 degrees so I sketched out hold east of
the ndb on the 090 bearing, right turns, one minute legs, altitude from
out previous clearance. Called atc with this clearance and entered the
hold. During the second circuit the controller called back to find out
what we would like to do next. On to the gps full approach.....

After landing I pulled out the "Instrument Proedures Handbook"
(FAA-H-8261-1) and found "... ATC may request that you hold at any
designated reporting point in a standard holding pattern at the MEA or the
MRA....". Also found "Unplanned holding at en enroute fixes may be
expected on airway or route radials, bearings, or courses". "If holding
pattern is not charted at the fix, hold on the inbound course using right
turns".

This is an excellent reference to use in addition to the FAR/AIM that is
often quoted. I hope that this is helpful to the original poster, the
thread seems to have wandered a bit.
Tom