Lancaster California: Another Fatal Cirrus Crash

"Newps" wrote

From 800 feet??? I thought you were talking close to the ground. When I
had my 182 I needed 450 feet to return to the runway I took off from,
landing opposite direction. From 800 feet I will make a pattern of it and
land the same way I took off.


That sounds suspect as an over generalization, to me. A 152 will take a lot
more time to descend that same altidude, vs a 182, or a sr-22, right?

That of course is a relative term but from 800 feet you will have over a
minute before you hit the ground.

Two minutes with a 152, then?

The time to get your head wrapped around the situation would seem, to me, to
be an important factor. It should be enough for both cases, but how much
lower is still enough, for the 152 brain in a sr-22?
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


"Newps" wrote


From 800 feet??? I thought you were talking close to the ground.
When I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to return to the runway I took off
from, landing opposite direction. From 800 feet I will make a pattern
of it and land the same way I took off.



That sounds suspect as an over generalization, to me. A 152 will take a
lot more time to descend that same altidude, vs a 182, or a sr-22, right?

I have never flown a 152 so I don't know exactly how it flies. However
it is a strutted Cessna so I would fly it the same as the 182. The
poster stated that they were turning downwind at 800 feet. Worst case
there being no wind I would continue on downwind until one of two things
happens. I get to 300 AGL or I get to the approach end of the runway.
Never go past the approach end of the runway before turning base. Once
turning base it is a constant bank turn at 80 mph IAS. Roll out over
the runway and land. I do this nearly every time at my home airport
because I use the small runway and there is rarely traffic. Half flaps
at midfield when the runway is made and full flaps on base.



That of course is a relative term but from 800 feet you will have over
a minute before you hit the ground.


Two minutes with a 152, then?

I don't know, what is the fpm descent that you would get in a 152? In
the 182 it was about 500-600 at 80 mph.

I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to

I thought we are talking abour SR20. I flew a lot of 182RG...but it is
not a SR20. You are right on 182 but the one crashed is not your 182.


From many test report, SR20 is even worse than SR22 on the aloaf. Our
CSI (Cirrus Standardized Instructor) experienced several wing drop
events during stall practices in a Cirrus during past few years. This
plane is not as stable as your 182 at very low speed.

Like many other posts, we have to respect each type and model that has
their own charecterestic and envolope. Yeh, 182 and many other planes
including gliders can adjust its own pitch to adapt power
change...quickly and in almost all kind of pitch and power
combinations. But it may not be the case for some other airplanes (in
certain pitch and power combination). One example I can make is that a
short-wing aerobatic aircraft such as Sukhoi 26 in a high-pitch
low-speed climb out and then pull the power off, what will happend?
Yeh the nose will drop dramatically, but will it remain stable without
any control input? will it remaining its climb out speed when it start
to dive? (again, no control input is allowed in your case). I don't
think so.

"cpu" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had my 182 I needed 450 feet to

I thought we are talking abour SR20. I flew a lot of 182RG...but it is
not a SR20. You are right on 182 but the one crashed is not your 182.


From many test report, SR20 is even worse than SR22 on the aloaf. Our
CSI (Cirrus Standardized Instructor) experienced several wing drop
events during stall practices in a Cirrus during past few years. This
plane is not as stable as your 182 at very low speed.

Like many other posts, we have to respect each type and model that has
their own charecterestic and envolope. Yeh, 182 and many other planes
including gliders can adjust its own pitch to adapt power
change...quickly and in almost all kind of pitch and power
combinations. But it may not be the case for some other airplanes (in
certain pitch and power combination). One example I can make is that a
short-wing aerobatic aircraft such as Sukhoi 26 in a high-pitch
low-speed climb out and then pull the power off, what will happend?
Yeh the nose will drop dramatically, but will it remain stable without
any control input? will it remaining its climb out speed when it start
to dive? (again, no control input is allowed in your case). I don't
think so.



Assuming you have the S-26 trimmed for a given speed when the power is
pulled at some point it will stabilize at the speed it was trimed for. There
is one exception to this rule. The ground must not get in the way first.
Should that happen all aircraft have an auto-trim function.

Assuming you have the S-26 trimmed for a given speed when the power is
pulled at some point it will stabilize at the ....

Well, your comment is correct only when the diving S-26 stability is in
the envelope. If its current stability is out of the envelope, it may
never reach its former trimed speed (or stable state). If you've
readed the basic air dynamic in the ATP or commercial exam materials,
you know there are 2 basic stabilities of an aircraft...dynamic and
static stability. These 2 factors (and others) determine the
performance envelope of an aircraft. If the air dynamic is that
simple, all my friends in JPL and Boeing will be out of jobs by now.

Why the most popular aircraft such as 182 (epscially most high-wings)
will fall to its trim speed when power is lost because its stability
envelope is large. So when power factor changed, in most of cases, its
static stability will let the aircraft fall back into its balance
state. Not all the aircrafts like this, you can proove it by common
sense. (think about other types and models, jets, B2 bumber...etc.)